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estate_tacks

estate_tacks

Waukegan, IL
August 2006

DEC 17, 2008 05:07 PM

Well, folks, there was a quite a reaction to my first piece, and I can’t thank you enough for your interest in the article and its topic. It made me feel really good to see so many people interested in addiction, and to connect with those who are currently fighting it. That said, on to the proverbial meat and potatoes!

It came to my attention recently that outside of strong devotees to the AA and NA/CA programs, there is a large demographic of people for whom the idea of a higher power is problematic. The twelve steps lean heavily on the language of a higher power, and the concept itself is spoken of quite often by those in the recovery community. As with any system of deep self-searching, there will always be zealous people who interpret things in only one way and then insist their interpretation is as the only correct one. First of all, we need to accept the fact that those types of people will always be around. I found it a hell of a lot easier to work my own damn program of recovery when I stopped comparing my beliefs and interpretations to those of others in recovery. This applies to more than just recovery. I feel that it’s a life lesson. Unless a person is outwardly threatening you or others with their beliefs, there is no reason to pay credence to them. It is a waste of time and energy, both of which are in short supply these days.

The idea of spirituality is big in the twelve-step model of recovery. The second step involves admitting that a power greater than yourself can restore you to sanity. This, in and of itself, invokes no metaphysical conundrums. But the third step inserts that magic word that seems to divide the addict’s mind right at the start; God. The third step states: We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over the care of god as we understood him. Now, aside from the gender-biased language of that step, there exists the problem of the inclusion of that word….god. Ugh, right? Well, sure, I can definitely wax philosophical on all the things wrong with the classical notion of God, but to do that in recovery is to miss the point. The third step is basically a reminder that YOU ARE FUCKING INSANE, and your will was to GET FUCKED UP AT ALL COSTS! Why, if you are serious about recovery, would you NOT turn your will over to some other plan? Here’s the deal folks: forget the classical notion of god, in fact, forget the word Ñ I did. The point is not what IS the higher power, the point is YOU ARE NOT IT!!!! Got it? Good, let’s move on.

It’s not hard to find a “power greater than yourself.” If you actually pay attention, and I’m sure fellow columnist Brad Warner can agree with this, you have very little control of what goes on around you. You have a very small, pitiful amount of power over reality. So finding a higher power should not be problematic. I simply made the step from noticing that I can’t even control my car, the weather, or my own emotions flying at me Ñ to seeing that there is a group of people, with principles that can help me fight my problem, and I just have to give up my pride.

Simply put, the people at each meeting I attend are a power greater than myself. They are not in my control, and they offer a new will to which I can submit. They offer a plan that, if followed, leads pretty logically to a life much better than the one I had. Once I started thinking in terms of how my desires and actions fit in with the suggestions of AA and NA, it became apparent that my ego was quickly leaving me, and it felt fucking great! I found that carrying that huge ass ego around for as long as I did was just exhausting me. I started giving a shit about other people, I let my feelings out there, and I let people get to know me. I can’t tell you how valuable that was for me, the more transparent I became, the less I made my petty desires the motivation for my actions, the more I found myself at ease with pretty much everything.

When it comes to sharing in meetings, in front of a group, I do still shy away from using the word “god” and even avoid talking about a “higher power”. But when I am pressed to talk about the issue, I do admit that submitting to a higher power has made my life manageable, which is a solution to the admitted situation with the first step. I think that there is a happy medium that one can strike, one which lies between the zealots who constantly praise God and mention the deity at every chance, and the egomaniacs who refuse to recognize that their way fucked them up and will continue to do so.

To tell you the truth, I still don’t say the “Our Father” at the end of meetings. I feel no hatred toward those who do, nor am I protesting, I just don’t find that it works for me. But I tried it for a while. I gave it a go, I put my ego aside. That is the important part. Bottom line, addicts: we’re junkies, drunks, and fiends. We got fucked up, then fucked everything else up. Does it sound likely that we’re going to be able to run the show solo when it comes to making our lives right? I don’t buy it, not for a second. The best thing I ever did was realize that I have very little power, then submit to something that seems to have a lot of positive power. Just think about it. I encourage every addict to find their own way in recovery, but I also hope that they're smart about it. Don’t be afraid to admit you need help and guidance, because you do, and so do I. Let’s help each other, folks. Let’s turn or wills over, because based on what our wills got us before, I don’t think they’re really worth keeping anyway.

Until next time, stay positive, stay open-minded, and most importantly, stay sober!


Disclaimer: This article is written from the point of view of one single addict. It is not intended to give any definitive answers to medical, psychological, or legal issues. Anyone having problems with addiction/alcoholism should contact either their doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist, nearest substance abuse treatment center, Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous hotline, or all of the aforementioned. Support can also be found at SG's own Sobriety Group

Shal

Shal

Los Angeles, CA
October 2002

DEC 18, 2008 07:23 PM

Is the "stay sober!" really necessary? Please remember that not everyone has a problem, and the vast majority of your audience has no problem with drinking occasionally (or even occasionally getting drunk) and have no need or desire to "stay sober."

Unless, of course, you're only intending to address the NA/AA portion of the SG audience. In which case, carry on, and the rest of us can stop reading.

I drink. Sometimes I drink too much. However, I'm in my 30s, I have a great career, a wonderful long-term relationship, healthy happy well-cared-for dogs, have never wrecked my car or lost a job or killed a relationship or flunked out of school or anything even remotely like that... oh, and when I did have some far more self destructive habits in my younger years, my ego did a pretty good job of helping me stop (because my ego kept saying "you're better than this" and hey, you know what? My ego was right).

I suppose I don't need to read your column?

Shal

Shal

Los Angeles, CA
October 2002

DEC 18, 2008 07:31 PM

My main problem with the "higher power" thing is you're turning over your will to something that is completely and totally fake, and you're telling yourself that you can't possibly have the strength to overcome your problems.

When it's 3AM and you've had a really, really, really bad week and you've got a bottle of Jack in one hand and a couple Xanax in the other, no mythical higher power is going to reach down and make you throw them out. Only you can do that, and you have to know you have that power and strength within yourself.

d20

d20

San Francisco, CA
September 2003

DEC 18, 2008 07:46 PM

This is by far the sanest explanation of the second and third steps I've ever heard, but I still fundamentally disagree with them.

Mainly, it's the word "submit". If you say that you're too fucked up to run your life and submit to letting someone/something else run it for you -- the rules, morals, conduct, choices in day to day life -- then you're pushing responsibility off onto that someone/something else. And you know what got you into the whole junkie problem in the first place? Not living your life like a responsible adult.

Still, I think it does take a significant swallowing of pride to admit that you can't do it yourself, and that you need help. And far be it from me to talk down to anyone who has the motivation to actively seek that help.

I just had to live with the fallout of an addict, so the whole self-centered me me me trip still rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't matter if you're high or sober if your head's still up your ass.

Rant caveat: the "you" in this post isn't any specific you on this site.

atomicant

atomicant

Portland, OR
June 2003

DEC 18, 2008 08:45 PM

what those two said.

why do you have to submit to a higher power to fix yourself? i think that labeling all addiction as a disease is a cop-out and does nothing to address the real issue at hand, and that's the addict's behavior. this is a trend that i am seeing more and more in american culture as i grow older. people, not necessarily only in america, seem unwilling to accept the personal responsibility for their actions, in many facets of life and living. we seem more willing to sue and pawn off the consequences of our actions rather own up and try to fix the shit that we bring into our own lives.

if 12 step programs work for you, great. wonderful. i'm glad. but they are simply an approach to dealing with addiction and trauma, not the approach. the world is a subjective place, and every single person experiences it differently. just because something works for you or for you and your friends or for 99% of the world does not mean it will work for everyone.

like a whole lot of subjects these days, when talking about addiction and treatment & recovery, the author should rely on a lot of "i" statements, so as to simply convey their personal experiences and successes, and not assume that their particular experience is universal and works for the masses.

Cassiel

Cassiel

Aurora, CO
September 2004

DEC 18, 2008 09:04 PM

Shalome said:
My main problem with the "higher power" thing is you're turning over your will to something that is completely and totally fake



For you, it is "completely and totally fake." For them, it is not.

Shalome said:
the vast majority of your audience has no problem with drinking occasionally (or even occasionally getting drunk) and have no need or desire to "stay sober."



I think I understand what you're getting at here, but can you really, truly say that about other people?

atomicant

atomicant

Portland, OR
June 2003

DEC 18, 2008 09:11 PM

Cassiel said:

Shalome said:
My main problem with the "higher power" thing is you're turning over your will to something that is completely and totally fake



For you, it is "completely and totally fake." For them, it is not.



that's the hole point. these sort of things are purely subjective. until you can prove to me that a god exists, he doesn't exist for me. i don't give two shits on a shingle if you believe it, but don't try and tell me your way is the only way to fix addiction. that's you forcing your perception of god/spirituality on me, and that pisses me off.


Shalome said:
the vast majority of your audience has no problem with drinking occasionally (or even occasionally getting drunk) and have no need or desire to "stay sober."



I think I understand what you're getting at here, but can you really, truly say that about other people?



while your point is valid, i think it's a relatively safe bet that at least the majority of people who are reading this aren't total full-blown addicts. maybe not, but that's a hard point to prove either way.

Cassiel

Cassiel

Aurora, CO
September 2004

DEC 18, 2008 09:19 PM

atomicant said:

Cassiel said:

Shalome said:
My main problem with the "higher power" thing is you're turning over your will to something that is completely and totally fake



For you, it is "completely and totally fake." For them, it is not.



that's the hole point. these sort of things are purely subjective. until you can prove to me that a god exists, he doesn't exist for me. i don't give two shits on a shingle if you believe it, but don't try and tell me your way is the only way to fix addiction. that's you forcing your perception of god/spirituality on me, and that pisses me off.


Shalome said:
the vast majority of your audience has no problem with drinking occasionally (or even occasionally getting drunk) and have no need or desire to "stay sober."



I think I understand what you're getting at here, but can you really, truly say that about other people?



while your point is valid, i think it's a relatively safe bet that at least the majority of people who are reading this aren't total full-blown addicts. maybe not, but that's a hard point to prove either way.



RE: higher power

I understand yr point. But it seemed to me that the way it was written was demeaning and rude to those that do believe, and that pisses me off.

RE: sobriety

Agreed, it is hard to prove either way. That is, in essence, what I was going after.

Shal

Shal

Los Angeles, CA
October 2002

DEC 18, 2008 09:31 PM

Cassiel said:
But it seemed to me that the way it was written was demeaning and rude to those that do believe, and that pisses me off.



You can believe whatever you want. It may surprise you to learn that most of my family is religious -- in fact, most of the people I've ever met have been religious -- and I have no problem with that.

However, I find it demeaning and rude to say that faith in God (or a higher power) is the only way you can change your life, because, well, it's not even remotely true. Someone telling me that I have to admit I am powerless and can't do anything to help myself without trusting in a higher power pisses me off. wink

Cassiel

Cassiel

Aurora, CO
September 2004

DEC 18, 2008 09:59 PM

Shalome said:

Cassiel said:
But it seemed to me that the way it was written was demeaning and rude to those that do believe, and that pisses me off.



You can believe whatever you want. It may surprise you to learn that most of my family is religious -- in fact, most of the people I've ever met have been religious -- and I have no problem with that.

However, I find it demeaning and rude to say that faith in God (or a higher power) is the only way you can change your life, because, well, it's not even remotely true. Someone telling me that I have to admit I am powerless and can't do anything to help myself without trusting in a higher power pisses me off. wink



So are you trying to help them by saying to/telling them that's there's more than one way to do it?

atomicant

atomicant

Portland, OR
June 2003

DEC 18, 2008 10:00 PM

Cassiel said:

RE: higher power

I understand yr point. But it seemed to me that the way it was written was demeaning and rude to those that do believe, and that pisses me off.



the way it is usually written by believers pisses me off, since my lack of belief in one often causes people to get condescending and judgmental. talk about what you believe, but don't tell me it's Truth if your only proof is a bunch of books/scrolls/mantras written by people thousands of years ago.

Cassiel

Cassiel

Aurora, CO
September 2004

DEC 18, 2008 10:04 PM

atomicant said:

Cassiel said:

RE: higher power

I understand yr point. But it seemed to me that the way it was written was demeaning and rude to those that do believe, and that pisses me off.



the way it is usually written by believers pisses me off, since my lack of belief in one often causes people to get condescending and judgmental. talk about what you believe, but don't tell me it's Truth if your only proof is a bunch of books/scrolls/mantras written by people thousands of years ago.



It is a vicious circle, the arguments and such between the believers and non-believers, isn't it?

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

DEC 18, 2008 10:06 PM

Cassiel said:
RE: higher power

I understand yr point. But it seemed to me that the way it was written was demeaning and rude to those that do believe, and that pisses me off.



I find it unbelievably demeaning that people would insist that I am too weak to take care of myself. That is all kinds of bullshit and is not going to help people in the long run.

Cassiel

Cassiel

Aurora, CO
September 2004

DEC 18, 2008 10:09 PM

FreakPirate said:

Cassiel said:
RE: higher power

I understand yr point. But it seemed to me that the way it was written was demeaning and rude to those that do believe, and that pisses me off.



I find it unbelievably demeaning that people would insist that I am too weak to take care of myself. That is all kinds of bullshit and is not going to help people in the long run.



1.) I am taking it that you are using "I" in the general, and not specific, sense.

2.) Perhaps one could, for oneself, define "higher power" not in the religious sense, but in a more personal sense. That is to say, higher power = sober, clean self that one knows exists and wishes to obtain. Yes?

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

DEC 18, 2008 10:19 PM

Cassiel said:

1.) I am taking it that you are using "I" in the general, and not specific, sense.



I find it annoying in both senses.

2.) Perhaps one could, for oneself, define "higher power" not in the religious sense, but in a more personal sense. That is to say, higher power = sober, clean self that one knows exists and wishes to obtain. Yes?



That would be better but I've, personally, NEVER heard it presented that way. I've always seen it presented as the big G kind of god.

estate_tacks

estate_tacks

Waukegan, IL
August 2006

DEC 18, 2008 11:10 PM

Well, did I start the fire or what? I'll try to do what I can to clarify a little.

I knew that this would draw the wrath of the atheist with a chip on his/her shoulder. But I am glad about that, as I used to be that atheist. This is not to say that I am now a believer. I don't even give any credence to the argument over whether or not there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being. To me, it just doesn't do anything for my life.

What I was trying to say was not that every drug addict needs to believe in some mystical being to get recovery. Hell, not every addict needs the 12 steps to recover. I just am a fan of playing the odds. The way I have approached recovery, I see it as a war. I have seen too many casualties in this war. As a person fighting these battles, I am going to get as much armor and weaponry as I can. I see the steps and their principles as a good amount of weaponry and armor. They've helped a lot of people stay sober and if I can get something at all out of them, I will use them.

It follows that I don't believe that one can only recover through belief in a higher power. But I will say that the mind of an addict, in most cases, is not the best one in the bin. That being said, I find it hard to believe that the best way for an addict to recover from the horrible situations of addiction is to rely on some magical 180 in personality and thinking all of the sudden, out of nowhere. I think that there is a certain level of humility that is needed for an addict to really start changing. I think that this is what is at the center of the second and third steps; some addicts just need to be hit really hard upside the head, we are a hard-headed people.

As for the non-addicts, I don't mean to be exclusive. I merely wish to speak from the point of view that I know best: that of a pill-popping, scrip forging, lying, cheating, thief. Hopefully that P.O.V will help out even those who can handle their liquor or drugs, of which there are many.

BTW: no offense meant by the stay sober comment. I might just change it now that you mention it wink.

atomicant

atomicant

Portland, OR
June 2003

DEC 19, 2008 01:56 AM

estate_tacks said:
Well, did I start the fire or what? I'll try to do what I can to clarify a little.

I knew that this would draw the wrath of the atheist with a chip on his/her shoulder.



what does that mean? what exactly is an 'atheist with a chip on his/her shoulder'? i'm curious by what you meant there. seriously.


But I am glad about that, as I used to be that atheist. This is not to say that I am now a believer.



so you're an agnostic now? because that's the only middle ground between atheist and believer, at least as far as i can grok.

I merely wish to speak from the point of view that I know best: that of a pill-popping, scrip forging, lying, cheating, thief. Hopefully that P.O.V will help out even those who can handle their liquor or drugs, of which there are many.



maybe you should preface your articles with this little personal tidbit (emphasis added).

thanks for your perspective!


atomicant

atomicant

Portland, OR
June 2003

DEC 19, 2008 01:58 AM

Cassiel said:
It is a vicious circle, the arguments and such between the believers and non-believers, isn't it?



that's right. us unrighteous heathens keep demanding rational evidence, and you keep supplying the same old books.

DevilsReject

DevilsReject

Cleveland, OH
February 2007

DEC 19, 2008 06:19 AM

Shalome said:

Cassiel said:
But it seemed to me that the way it was written was demeaning and rude to those that do believe, and that pisses me off.



You can believe whatever you want. It may surprise you to learn that most of my family is religious -- in fact, most of the people I've ever met have been religious -- and I have no problem with that.

However, I find it demeaning and rude to say that faith in God (or a higher power) is the only way you can change your life, because, well, it's not even remotely true. Someone telling me that I have to admit I am powerless and can't do anything to help myself without trusting in a higher power pisses me off. wink



I won't ball all the AA groups up into one, but when i decided the sober route, i tried AA and here is what i found from the meetings, and this will draw criticism from people attending AA.

AA is good at what they do. People who attend AA will defend AA to the death. They don't accept criticism of AA well, at all. Anything AA says is truth and you take it at that and you don't question it. AA members are so willing to defend AA that they will insult and turn people who are seeking assistance away while defending AA. The Sobriety group is a good group, there are very caring people in there.

When i walked into my first AA meeting, i couldn't count the number of times i heard "God" or "Higher Power". I am by far not a strict religious person. I gave it a second chance, with the same results, "God" and "Higher Power". I actually still believed in God when i decided to go sober, i didn't become an Atheist until some time afterward.

AA in my opinion, refuses to put the responsibility of someone's addiction squarely on their shoulders. They tend to lay the blame as if it's an uncontrollable disease, almost like it is the equivalent of cancer. While i do believe it's a disease, and that there are genetic triggers, i believe it's a disease that is controllable by the person with the disease, if they are willing to take personal responsibility for their actions and come to the realization that they are not in fact like everyone else.

i know i am not like everyone else. The people i refer to as my friends, can consume responsibly, they can get drunk and not want to drink for an undetermined amount of time while shirking their responsibility and daily obligations. I can't. In order to control it, i rely on myself to know better than to take that first drink. It's got absolutely null to do with a higher power, and everything to do with me knowing my limitations and expectations of myself.

In my opinion, AA uses the higher power as a crutch, or with some cases, an ulterior addiction that won't kill you or make you act an asshole. You aren't controlling your addiction, you're just trading one addiction for another. It's not a bad thing, unless you choose not to believe in a higher power or God. The meetings i did attend ended up having people carrying the bible around and quoting scripture to me. There are numerous references to "God" or a description of God in the Big Book (The text of AA). I lost interest after a couple of months of AA. The last thing i wanted was to be preached at, not "to", preached "at".

I think the smartest thing anyone ever did for me was tell me that i am the only one that can make and keep me sober. I can call and vent to and get help from other people, but I have to take the first step, i have to seek help, i have to remain true to staying sober, i have to know my limitations, i have to know when i need to leave, i have to know when to end a friendship that i cannot personally tolerate due to my addictions, i have to know when to walk away to protect myself. I am responsible for me. Once i realized this, controlling the addiction became somewhat easier.

I also know that it's my choice to be sober and that it's wrong to force it on anyone else. It's my lifestyle choice, it doesn't mean that everyone has to coincide with it. I hang around a lot of people that drink, i hang around some people that choose to use, that is there choice, i may not approve of it, but i will never criticize them for it. When they decide they want help, then i will move forward with it, until then, it's my lifestyle choice, not everyone's.

I am an addict and an alcoholic. I will always be an addict and an alcoholic, i just choose not to use. I won't ever stop being an addict and an alcoholic, i will never be cured, i will however, have control of my alcoholism and addictions.

I think what you're running into with the author is his new found glory of sobriety. I understand that you've never had an issue with it Shalome, but one of the most overwhelming feelings if you suffered from addiction or alcoholism is to immediately think "Wow! Everyone should try this!" When in reality, not everyone has a problem. You run into a situation where you want to spread the word, and in the process you're forcing it down the throats of other people, without even realizing it.

Another thing you may run into, is AA (or rehab, it's not just AA) snobs. I don't think this is the case here, but i can't tell you the number of times that i have run across someone that has recovered, or has control of their addictions, and actually looks down on anyone that consumes alcohol. They think they are better than people that still consume, simply because they are sober. I don't really play that way, an open mind goes both ways.

Cassiel

Cassiel

Aurora, CO
September 2004

DEC 19, 2008 10:48 AM

atomicant said:

Cassiel said:
It is a vicious circle, the arguments and such between the believers and non-believers, isn't it?



that's right. us unrighteous heathens keep demanding rational evidence, and you keep supplying the same old books.



1.) I'm an agnostic, though I find the subject of religion rather interesting.

2.) I meant no ill will toward you & yr beliefs w/my statement.

atomicant said:

estate_tacks said:
Well, did I start the fire or what? I'll try to do what I can to clarify a little.

I knew that this would draw the wrath of the atheist with a chip on his/her shoulder.



what does that mean? what exactly is an 'atheist with a chip on his/her shoulder'? i'm curious by what you meant there. seriously.



I think what he means is that a lot of atheists, for the majority of the time, see any religious person (and for the purpose of this argument, we will define 'religious person' as a Christian) as a right-wing fundamentalist (when in truth, not all of them are). I think that this is due to the administration and subsequent sociopolitical climate we've had for the last 8 years. These people have used their religion to justify things and push certain agendas that should never have been used in the first place. Therefore, at the mere mention of anything remotely religious, American atheists start foaming at the mouth, so to speak. At least that is what I inferred from his statement.

lil_tuffy

lil_tuffy

MODERATOR

San Francisco, CA

DEC 19, 2008 12:19 PM

I dunno if you started a fire, exactly. THe thread hasn't even surpassed on page yet!

I was raised catholic and spent time in the catholic school system. The problem I have with a lot of Christianity is how warped the lessons really are. When my sister got brain-washed by a Christian youth group, she had it fixed in her mind that everything positive that happened in her life was because god let it be so whereas everything negative was punishment for something she had done wrong. It was horrible and it took a long time for her to understand that god has no influence on what happens in this mortal coil -- good or bad, he's a hands-off kinda guy.

The problem I have with religion's role in recovery is that it's substituting one addiction for another. Albeit, the path of the righteous is probably less destructive personally but I've lost a lot of friends to the god squad -- getting hooked on jesus was even more annoying then being fucked up on various chemicals.

I'm all for sobriety. My friend and ex-boss has been sober 14 years and he still occasionally struggles with aspects of that old dependency but he doesn't bring it up whenever people show up to work hungover and he doesn't lecture his friends on the evils of drinking and drugs. We have a mutual respect for each others lifestyles - he doesn't tell me what to do and vice versa.




Shal

Shal

Los Angeles, CA
October 2002

DEC 19, 2008 12:23 PM

DevilsReject said:
I think what you're running into with the author is his new found glory of sobriety.



That's certainly true. I have an extreme respect for logic and rationality (and I'm also an asshole), and thus have the innate need to try to take zealots of all stripes down a notch. Also, the AA-attending newly sober remind me a hell of a lot of the recently-born-agains I've known. wink


AA is great for the people it works for, like estate_tacks. AA fails most people (or works about as well as no program at all). From AA's own survey of its program members:

35 percent were sober for more than five years; 34 percent were sober from between one and five years; and 31 percent were sober for less than one year. The average time sobriety of members is more than five years. According to A.A. World Services, the survey is designed to provide information to the professional community and the general public as part of its purpose to carry the message of recovery to those who still suffer from alcoholism. For more information about Alcoholics Anonymous, write to A.A. World Services, Grand Central Station, Box 459, New York, NY 10163.





Let's compare that to the findings of the Harvard Medical School (citation: Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.):

There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

DEC 19, 2008 02:57 PM

lil_tuffy said:

The problem I have with religion's role in recovery is that it's substituting one addiction for another. Albeit, the path of the righteous is probably less destructive personally but I've lost a lot of friends to the god squad -- getting hooked on jesus was even more annoying then being fucked up on various chemicals.



Thank you.

While religion may be a less damaging crutch (debatable) it's still just that, a crutch. I understand that some people need things like that to help them get by but I don't think it's the most healthy recovery to replace one with another.

I already feel guilty about the amount of damage my drinking has done in the past. I don't need an added scoop of God guilt on top of that. It would drive me to abusive drinking again.

DevilsReject

DevilsReject

Cleveland, OH
February 2007

DEC 19, 2008 03:01 PM

i don't think failures and episodes in which people begin to abuse again are specific to AA. I went 5 years being sober, had a pretty life altering occurrence happen and basically jumped off the wagon and fell back into old ways. After about 8-10 months of using and abusing again, i righted myself, on my own, for a second time.

I am a very destructive addict and alcoholic when i am consuming, not just to myself but to the people around me. I could probably tell you stories that would horrify you, i know i have ruined a wedding.....or two...okay maybe three. It's part of the reason i choose to stay sober, and remind myself when cravings come around, that it's just not the right choice. That is my lifestyle choice due to my habits.

Needless to say, i've been sober for about another 5 since then, but i learned a lesson from the first incident and the second one just proved it. I am not capable of responsibly consuming. If i consume, at some point i will hurt someone, including myself, either emotionally or physically.

That last paragraph of Tuffy's response is pretty much how i live. People drink, people use drugs, that's how life works. I have no right to judge them for their actions, it's their life, they can live it as they choose. If they come to me or ask me about sobriety, it's a different story, they opened the door, but i won't push them through the door, it's a decision they have to make.

I can't imagine going to an SG Event like Havana only to start lecturing everyone on the imperial evils of alcohol and drugs. I am pretty sure i would have to remove a spiked heel from my forehead. Not only would i never do it, i also have no desire to do it, i would be judging and making the assumption that everyone there is an alcoholic, while that just isn't true.

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

DEC 19, 2008 03:22 PM

I can't even begin to imagine how huge a hypocrite I would be if I started preaching to people about not doing drugs or drinking.

Well... I'd be clear on the drugs bit. But the drinking... yikes.

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