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NOV 16, 2008 02:57 PM
What's not to understand? I can see how it would be somewhat confusing if you hadn't seen or didn't remember Casino Royale, but I thought the plot was pretty straightforward. And well done.
NOV 16, 2008 03:03 PM
I enjoyed it, and I'm with malkav11. There isn't much to not understand.
NOV 16, 2008 03:18 PM
malkav11 said:
What's not to understand? I can see how it would be somewhat confusing if you hadn't seen or didn't remember Casino Royale, but I thought the plot was pretty straightforward. And well done.
Without spoiling... what didn't you understand?
I thought it was the best bond film I've seen in a long, long time.
NOV 16, 2008 04:18 PM
lil_tuffy said:
malkav11 said:
What's not to understand? I can see how it would be somewhat confusing if you hadn't seen or didn't remember Casino Royale, but I thought the plot was pretty straightforward. And well done.
Without spoiling... what didn't you understand?
I thought it was the best bond film I've seen in a long, long time.
Oh yeah I love the different feeling of Bond. I rather have Serious over smooth talking playboy.
I didn't understand what Dominic Greene was trying to do in the desert.
Probably profit somehow from the water. And I'm disappointed by the whole revenge storyline.
I still don't understand the boyfriend and Vesper. I guess Vesper was tricked or something? Was that supposed to be a twist. That he's still alive?
And the one thing I'm really disappointed in he didn't say Bond, James Bond. I know it's corny but I still dig it.
I want to bring up Dominic Greene again. I just thought it wasn't all that interesting.
My favorite part was the beginning. I love car chases. And I don't understand all the hating of QoS.
It was a good movie but lacked in storytelling. I thought?
NOV 16, 2008 05:28 PM
Quantum's precise motives are still nebulous, but it seems clear that they want power and control. Greene was buying up Bolivia's water reserves. The general and the CIA both thought he was trying to go after oil (or maybe diamonds), but Greene was thinking ahead. A lot of people are predicting that water is going to become the next major focal point for conflict as it's fundamentally necessary to life and our viable fresh water sources are dwindling. Greene clearly agreed with them. And it wasn't just him - it was clearly something Quantum was working on all over.
Vesper's boyfriend was an operative for Quantum whose modus operandi was seducing female government intelligence agents and then, once they were in love, being "threatened" in order to blackmail them into doing things for Quantum. That's what he was trying to do with that Canadian agent when Bond caught up to him.

AceT
Portland, OR
April 2004
NOV 16, 2008 06:11 PM
I thought it was meh, a lot of parkour and bullets and explosions but not much of a plot. Granted this is a Bond movie we're talking about, but even most Bond movies are pretty self-contained. This was basically an extended ending to Casino Royale.
NOV 16, 2008 06:54 PM
malkav11 said:
Quantum's precise motives are still nebulous, but it seems clear that they want power and control. Greene was buying up Bolivia's water reserves. The general and the CIA both thought he was trying to go after oil (or maybe diamonds), but Greene was thinking ahead. A lot of people are predicting that water is going to become the next major focal point for conflict as it's fundamentally necessary to life and our viable fresh water sources are dwindling. Greene clearly agreed with them. And it wasn't just him - it was clearly something Quantum was working on all over.
Vesper's boyfriend was an operative for Quantum whose modus operandi was seducing female government intelligence agents and then, once they were in love, being "threatened" in order to blackmail them into doing things for Quantum. That's what he was trying to do with that Canadian agent when Bond caught up to him.
NOV 16, 2008 06:55 PM
AceT said:
I thought it was meh, a lot of parkour and bullets and explosions but not much of a plot. Granted this is a Bond movie we're talking about, but even most Bond movies are pretty self-contained. This was basically an extended ending to Casino Royale.
That's what I loved. A true sequel finally. I just thought it was complicated.
NOV 17, 2008 01:59 AM
Ugh. QoS sucked hard.
This was more akin to the throwaway Pierce Brosnan Bond movies that we all grew tired of than anything else. Just Bond shooting at a bunch of disposable bad guys and a plot so convoluted that nobody could be expected to follow it.
They started off the movie with this super secret organization, but quickly that plot line went nowhere. The dude they beat up in the beginning of the movie, the one who had the guy who almost killed M, didn't turn into anything. He showed up at the big concert, but for what? A coincidence? It wasn't funny, it was just a wasted opportunity, and they spent the first half an hour of that movie building up that shadowy organization just to abandon it and go for something else.
And what did they go for? Some dude getting rich by buying and selling water. Big fucking deal. He wasn't a villain, he was an opportunist. He wasn't evil, he was just a douchebag. Bond fights douchebags now? And furthermore, how the hell was that guy keeping up with Bond at the end of the movie? That entire fight scene I was thinking to myself, "why the hell hasn't James taken that axe away and knocked him the fuck out?" Worst villain ever. He had no substance, no style, no nothing. He was just a douche with a lot of money and no motive, aside from getting more money.
So then there's the Mathis plot. Okay, cool. An interesting character from a previous Bond movie, okay. Except, no. He's dead in about ten minutes with no explanation as to why or how. Guess we're not focusing on that interesting character anymore...
Maybe Ms. Fields, the sexy redhead who is clearly cut out to be the classic Bond girl? She'll do something, right? Yeah! She tripped some dude and totally had James' back at the party. She's gonna - well, shit. She's dead.
Ah-ha! I know! How about Felix? We'll bring Felix in and he'll - no... guess not. That lasted about five minutes, too.
So what the fuck? They introduce all these interesting characters just long enough to pique our interest, but they kill them off in such haphazard fashion that we don't have enough time to be invested, interested, or care about any of them.
Chamille was weak, too. She was written like they got her character out of a "writing deep characters 101" textbook. She didn't deserve half the screen time she got. It felt like the screenwriter who wrote the scene where she's huddled in the corner of the flaming room was jerking off at his own prowess when he wrote it.
"Ohhh, fuck yeah. She almost died because the general set her house on fire, and now she killed the general but she's going to die in a fire, oh fuck. Oh fuck. Check out how ironic that is. It's so deep. Look at the callback I just did. Look at how I tied up that loose end. Oh fuck. It's just like when Chamille conveniently pointed out the sinkholes from the plane and then they dropped into a sinkhole like five minutes later. OH FUCK THAT WAS SO GOOD EENNNGAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!"
The entire movie was basically a callback to Casino Royale, except... that's it. "Hey guys, remember? Bond fell in love and she betrayed him? Remember that? Remember that for 106 minutes, because we didn't actually make another movie. We just filmed a lot of stuff blowing up and shot a lot of fake guns with expensive cameras, so we're going to fill in the time between all of that by eluding to this other movie we made a few years ago."
And what's up with the fucking one-liners? "You and I had a mutual friend!" Why not just have him say "Yippie-kay-yay, motherfuckers?" and do another Die Hard movie?
And ultimately, that's where my criticism lies. They turned this into an action movie, like Die Hard or Rambo. They took the mystique out of Bond by eliminating any interesting plot, any good spy scenes, any good espionage, any interesting characters, and basically skipped from gun scene to chase scene to set piece until they ran out of disposable characters to dispose of. It was only 106 minutes, but it felt like three hours. All the mystique, style, and substance that made Casino Royale great was missing.
And on top of all of that, the action scenes were flat. A car chase with dudes shooting at Bond with machine guns? Okay, I guess. But the cuts were so abrupt that I felt like I was having a seizure, and nothing cool happened. The dudes in the car got shot. Big deal. After seeing the car chases in the Borne movies I need some cool shit to happen to be impressed. The chase scene between the double-agent and Bond was cool, but they never actually fought. They swung around on ropes for five minutes and then Bond shot him. The dude in the hotel? Lasted about 30 seconds, Bond stabbed him. Every time a confrontation came up that was supposed to be meaningful, against someone who might be a challenge for Bond, they failed to actually challenge him. Three dudes in an elevator with his hands cuffed? Ten seconds.
NOV 17, 2008 03:23 AM
Jace said:
All the mystique, style, and substance that made Casino Royale great was missing.
I liked the Quantum of Solace.
As for the last one: I'm of the opinion that Texas Hold'ems Poker, cardboard "I love you's", not knowing how to drive an Aston Martin, falling for the poison drink to a man that reminds me of Number 2 from Austin Powers; these things do not show me style, substance or mystique. Did I mention they played Texas Hold'ems? They might as well have been playing dominoes.
The drink that Bond had while travelling with Mathis had more style, substance and mystique than the entire last movie.

Quirky
Birmingham, AL
October 2005
NOV 17, 2008 07:17 AM
Isn't this supposed to be "Early" in the Ian Fleming timeline for Bond, though?
NOV 17, 2008 08:08 AM
Yes it is, but as with Casino Royale, they changed part of the plot to make sense in today's economy and other things in that same vein.
Such as in Casino Royale, they play poker instead of baccarat because everyone and their mother has probably seen poker on tv and would understand that because baccarat is confusing as hell

X_Racer_X
Philadelphia, PA
July 2008
NOV 17, 2008 08:12 AM
While I liked the movie and I think that Daniel Craig makes the best modern day Bond ever, it veered dangerously close to the Bourne flicks.

Quirky
Birmingham, AL
October 2005
NOV 17, 2008 08:37 AM
QuarterNote said:
Yes it is, but as with Casino Royale, they changed part of the plot to make sense in today's economy and other things in that same vein.
Such as in Casino Royale, they play poker instead of baccarat because everyone and their mother has probably seen poker on tv and would understand that because baccarat is confusing as hell
Well I certainly don't mind the modernization of the world around Bond, but seeing as how Bond is not yet the level of suave debonair playboy as when he is portrayed by Connery, he would not yet have that Mystique that Jace was complaining about a lack of. The character is in its infancy.
NOV 17, 2008 01:35 PM
MisterEnrolled said:
QuarterNote said:
Yes it is, but as with Casino Royale, they changed part of the plot to make sense in today's economy and other things in that same vein.
Such as in Casino Royale, they play poker instead of baccarat because everyone and their mother has probably seen poker on tv and would understand that because baccarat is confusing as hell
Well I certainly don't mind the modernization of the world around Bond, but seeing as how Bond is not yet the level of suave debonair playboy as when he is portrayed by Connery, he would not yet have that Mystique that Jace was complaining about a lack of. The character is in its infancy.
Well... there's a difference between mystique and skill. I think Bond had plenty of mystique in CR. He was suave, clever, charming, and mysterious in his personality. He personified Bond's ego just fine in my opinion, and they did a good job of making him feel youthful, which is good because like MisterEnrolled said, he's not up to the Connery point in the timeline yet.
But his actions as a soldier were completely unpolished. My favorite example of this is him breaking through the drywall during the initial chase scene with that freejumping guy, but there are examples throughout the movie. They did a great job making it feel like Bond was working to be a secret agent. It didn't come effortlessly. There were times when he messed up. Other times he was just unpolished. This is how they show Bond's novice status, not with a lack of personality.
So, in my opinion the mystique is an aspect of personality, not of performance. Though they can and often do intersect, they are independent things. This is exactly why Jason Bourne works as a character. He does the same secret agent spy stuff, but when he does it, he doesn't even know why or how. He does it with a complete lack of personality, and the best moments in the first Bourne movie are when Bourne takes down three guys, looks around, looks completely astonished, and runs away in a panic. That's an extremely telling, powerful, intense, puzzling moment. Jason Bourne is the antithesis of James Bond; Bond does the same stuff as Bourne, but with an absolute excess of personality, and that's why Bond works as well as he does. Anything in-between is just "meh" and there are countless examples of spy movies that were "meh."
If that's the case, Bond should carry his personality and mystique from one movie to the other, even as he evolves as a soldier and secret agent. I don't feel like that happened going from CR to CoS. It wasn't that Bond went backwards, it was that he went nowhere. There wasn't a pronounced lack of personality, Ala Bourne. There was just emptiness. Bond felt flat and boring in this movie. Nothing he did was mysterious, or suave, or clever. He was just... there. Daniel Craig is an amazing actor and an amazing Bond, and he did the best he could, but ultimately Bond just wasn't written in a captivating way for this movie. He meanders from scene to scene, dispatches bad guys, and that's basically it. It felt like an empty suit. I felt like there could have been any number of characters in Bond's position doing the same things Bond was doing, and that's unacceptable for a Bond movie. James Bond is one of a kind even for a secret agent; that's why he's such a unique, interesting, entertaining character. Everything he's doing should feel like something only Bond should be doing, not just in terms of technical prowess but in terms of style. I have to believe the character. I didn't believe it.
NOV 17, 2008 03:39 PM
Jace I strongly agree and you made me laugh!
And kudos for mentioning the other characters/actors!
I hope you liked Casino Royale though?
NOV 17, 2008 07:06 PM
Jace said:
MisterEnrolled said:
QuarterNote said:
Yes it is, but as with Casino Royale, they changed part of the plot to make sense in today's economy and other things in that same vein.
Such as in Casino Royale, they play poker instead of baccarat because everyone and their mother has probably seen poker on tv and would understand that because baccarat is confusing as hell
Well I certainly don't mind the modernization of the world around Bond, but seeing as how Bond is not yet the level of suave debonair playboy as when he is portrayed by Connery, he would not yet have that Mystique that Jace was complaining about a lack of. The character is in its infancy.
Well... there's a difference between mystique and skill. I think Bond had plenty of mystique in CR. He was suave, clever, charming, and mysterious in his personality. He personified Bond's ego just fine in my opinion, and they did a good job of making him feel youthful, which is good because like MisterEnrolled said, he's not up to the Connery point in the timeline yet.
But his actions as a soldier were completely unpolished. My favorite example of this is him breaking through the drywall during the initial chase scene with that freejumping guy, but there are examples throughout the movie. They did a great job making it feel like Bond was working to be a secret agent. It didn't come effortlessly. There were times when he messed up. Other times he was just unpolished. This is how they show Bond's novice status, not with a lack of personality.
So, in my opinion the mystique is an aspect of personality, not of performance. Though they can and often do intersect, they are independent things. This is exactly why Jason Bourne works as a character. He does the same secret agent spy stuff, but when he does it, he doesn't even know why or how. He does it with a complete lack of personality, and the best moments in the first Bourne movie are when Bourne takes down three guys, looks around, looks completely astonished, and runs away in a panic. That's an extremely telling, powerful, intense, puzzling moment. Jason Bourne is the antithesis of James Bond; Bond does the same stuff as Bourne, but with an absolute excess of personality, and that's why Bond works as well as he does. Anything in-between is just "meh" and there are countless examples of spy movies that were "meh."
If that's the case, Bond should carry his personality and mystique from one movie to the other, even as he evolves as a soldier and secret agent. I don't feel like that happened going from CR to CoS. It wasn't that Bond went backwards, it was that he went nowhere. There wasn't a pronounced lack of personality, Ala Bourne. There was just emptiness. Bond felt flat and boring in this movie. Nothing he did was mysterious, or suave, or clever. He was just... there. Daniel Craig is an amazing actor and an amazing Bond, and he did the best he could, but ultimately Bond just wasn't written in a captivating way for this movie. He meanders from scene to scene, dispatches bad guys, and that's basically it. It felt like an empty suit. I felt like there could have been any number of characters in Bond's position doing the same things Bond was doing, and that's unacceptable for a Bond movie. James Bond is one of a kind even for a secret agent; that's why he's such a unique, interesting, entertaining character. Everything he's doing should feel like something only Bond should be doing, not just in terms of technical prowess but in terms of style. I have to believe the character. I didn't believe it.
Agreed.
NOV 17, 2008 07:23 PM
Dude. The secret organization was never abandoned. Everything that Dominic Greene was doing, he did because he's a member of Quantum. Every bit of clout he had, he had because he was a member of Quantum. The opera scene? Was a meeting of Quantum. The boyfriend revenge at the end? Boyfriend was a member of Quantum.
If you can't even manage to discern something that basic, then I have trouble giving much credence to the rest of your analysis of the movie.

Quirky
Birmingham, AL
October 2005
NOV 17, 2008 07:27 PM
Maybe Bond is still reeling from the loss of Vesper? If the woman I loved died and betrayed me at the same time, it wouldn't matter if my brain was programmable - I'd be as emotional and blinded by revenge as Bond was portrayed to be in QoS.
Because we are never given a glimpse at Bond prior to his adult life, we must see his character in QoS as teen-like. He's going to be very sloppy and at times backpedal and go nowhere. He must learn to rely on himself. He made progress toward that by being subversive to M in QoS, and at the end by abandoning his heart.
NOV 17, 2008 07:39 PM
MisterEnrolled said:
Maybe Bond is still reeling from the loss of Vesper? If the woman I loved died and betrayed me at the same time, it wouldn't matter if my brain was programmable - I'd be as emotional and blinded by revenge as Bond was portrayed to be in QoS.
Because we are never given a glimpse at Bond prior to his adult life, we must see his character in QoS as teen-like. He's going to be very sloppy and at times backpedal and go nowhere. He must learn to rely on himself. He made progress toward that by being subversive to M in QoS, and at the end by abandoning his heart.
I like how Bond thought he could erase Vesper by sleeping with Fields.

Quirky
Birmingham, AL
October 2005
NOV 17, 2008 07:44 PM
TheEnnis said:
MisterEnrolled said:
Maybe Bond is still reeling from the loss of Vesper? If the woman I loved died and betrayed me at the same time, it wouldn't matter if my brain was programmable - I'd be as emotional and blinded by revenge as Bond was portrayed to be in QoS.
Because we are never given a glimpse at Bond prior to his adult life, we must see his character in QoS as teen-like. He's going to be very sloppy and at times backpedal and go nowhere. He must learn to rely on himself. He made progress toward that by being subversive to M in QoS, and at the end by abandoning his heart.
I like how Bond thought he could erase Vesper by sleeping with Fields.
I didn't see that really on his mind. I took it as an easily eaten snack for Bond.










TheEnnis
Chicago, IL
March 2008
NOV 16, 2008 02:37 PM