Summer Camp for Rational Teens

Apparently they don't believe in "reason" enough to get out of that sentence without a huge, glaring logical fallacy.

For the seven year olds, sure skepticism is a good start. But at 16 the best way to learn to think critically is by thinking critically, not by patting yourself on the back for doubting God in a safe community of like minded individuals.

That's how you see this camp?

Maybe I'm excited about the critical thinking possibilities side of things because I have seen too many college students who don't have even the basic skills required.

Yeah. I do think a camp that encourages kids to develop their academic interests and rational thinking is a great idea. I went to camps like that as a kid and they were fucking great. School sucked and summer camp gave me a chance to develop intellectually in a fun, friendly, relatively stress free atmosphere. And I damn sure think it gave me a leg up in college. But I think adding ideology to that environment, whether it be religious or explicitly un-religious, is a mistake. It adds an element of self-satisfaction that I think we all, religious folks and atheists alike, can do without. It also encourages the kind of "us against them" attitude that make discussions about religion so fucking annoying in the first place.

I keep writing and then deleting this, but here's what I'm trying to say. This camp, like Jesus Camp, singles kids out by their belief system. It allows them to develop their belief system in an environment where it will not be challenged by people who think differently, and just like Jesus Camp it will turn kids out with a smug sense of superiority and an unwillingness to listen openly to the ideas and beliefs of others. That's problematic. We live in a society with dozens, if not hundreds, of programs that allow smart kids to interact in a casual, academic environment with other smart kids from all sorts of different backgrounds, who will force them to challenge and expand their world view rather than shrink and consolidate it. I realize that was a hell of a long sentence, and my old summer camp writing teacher would kick my ass for it, but do you see what I'm saying?

I do see what you're saying. But I see this camp as more of a retreat, a safe place, where these kids can for possibly the first time (it is scary that they had a session where most of them admit that they aren't "out of the closet") see that they aren't alone. Challenging and exchanging ideas is great, but these are 12-15 (or so I'm guessing, based on the ages given in the article) year old kids. You said you want to different summer camps. I did too. And the one thing they all had in common (from 4H to Boy Scouts) was a required religious side. We had to pray before meals and anybody who didn't would be pulled aside later by a counselor later to explain themselves.

Now, that might be more of a local thing (Nebraska isn't known for being open-minded), but I can see where a camp for kids who don't want to learn more about their side of the argument would be attractive.

BS. that camp is for kids already in gifted programs around the country, not just anybody. it doesn't promote development of intelligence in anybody wanting to go, it takes those that already prove intelligent and furthers their education and studies it at the same time.

for instance, you have to score in the 50th percentile for graduating high school seniors on the SAT or ACT test to qualify. in 7th grade.

Camp Inquiry doesn't have those requirements. while i'm all for the camps run by the Center for Creative Youth, they're a completely different animal all together.

CTY is what I know, so it's what I used, but it's not alone in the world of summer camps that teach kids to think.

Edit: Problems with the hyper-link, but here's the website I was linking:
http://www.allensguide.com/academic/

And that's fine, but I think Jesus camp scratches the same itch for a lot of kids. The kids are young and probably in need of a retreat, but if you claim you are going to teach the kids to think critically, you need to put them in an environment that is going to challenge their beliefs and challenge the kids to identify and defend them.

Aside from various nerd camps, I spent 8 summers at YMCA camp in Upstate NY (not too Camp Inquiry) when I was a kid, and despite the Young Man's Christian Association thing, I was never once asked to pray or made to feel awkward because I am not a Christian, so I think that might be a Nebraska thing. All I'm saying is summer camp was always an opportunity for me to broaden my horizons and I don't think that would have happened at a camp designed to cater to a particular ideological set.

Okay guys, I'm taking off for the weekend so I won't be around to argue this, but I hope I've made my position clear. I just don't think it's a good idea.

I wonder how well received the pagan kids are at this camp.

You mean after being told that their beliefs are irrational superstitions?

Thanks for that. Pagans tend to be hypercritical of the Abrahamic religions, already. My question is more to the idea that since they are very skeptical about the over-meddled Judeo-Christian and Islamic traditions, yet still believe in a supreme being on an individual level (that is, one pagan's defintion of the divine is never the same for another, ever), would they not be well received?

I'm not going to argue this from a adult perspective . I will tell you my opinion though . When I was the age of the kids in this article , I would have just about killed to be able to go to this camp . You see , I grew up surrounded by rednecks & hicks for whom logic was a questionable pastime at best . And because of that I had few friends , because I had little in common with most locals .
I agree with coyotemike in that I would have looked at this as a retreat . A place where I could meet other teens who felt the same way I do about the universe , & not be belittled or beat up for it . Unlike the Jesus Camp kids , I don't see anyone exhorting these kids to prepare for the coming war . And these kids are older then a lot of the Jesus Camp kids . That was the thing I found most disturbing about that film . That being said , I wasn't crazy about the sound bite of the two parents ( one atheist , one catholic ) . " I win " ? That'll be really nice when the divorce comes down the line dude . Since when is parenting a competition ?

I can see the benifit of a camp such as this for youth. If done right it can provide the youth with confidence and a community to fall back on for support. I think the community they gain is the most important advantage the camp has to offer. At home,few of them propbably know more then one or two people thinking through things the same way as themselves. As for the concerns regarding youth aquiring a sense of superiority, I think that could be likely to occur if the camp isn't well managed. (It doesn't help that they're teens, in a group, with a rival camp with water and ink ballons across the lake). Its something to keep an eye on for sure.
Out of curiosty because I know this is a big website; does anyone have a younger sibling or know of someone that attended this camp?

You mean they're going to question, and be skeptical of, all of their liberal college professors? Cool.

Sounds like this kind of camp

I've spent years teaching classes of students who are too scared to ask a question, voice an opinion, or make any sort of waves at all. I'd love to be questioned by a student, as long as they have something to back themselves up.

Somebody mentioned earlier that responses to this may very much have to do with the poster's region, which I think is an excellent point. Acanius and I are both from the North East, Aetheism isn't as much of a big deal here. I went to Catholic school from 8-11 grade, and I'd say at least a fifth of the kids didn't have any religious views at all, and the amount of kids that were truly "faithful" were very small, none of which I would say were as hateful or ignorant as the people I've heard described coming from the bible belt; they were actually rather pleasant. The rest were either casually religious or had some sort of vague, spiritual belief. Not even all the teachers were Christian. And *thats* a Catholic school, in public schools up here, nobody remotely gives a shit. There was a small group of Christian girls at the public high school I went to, and that's it, and a lot of them still smoked pot, had sex with their boyfriends, voted Democrat, thought gays should be allowed to marry and all those other non stereotypically Christian things. I realize this is very different than the bible belt area of this country, which many of you are from.

Lolz!

Look, I could take apart everything you mentioned, as I feel you completely mis-characterized what I said (and were, ironically being stereotypical yourself), but it would be lengthy and just repeat a bunch of points Acanius already made, yet I want to respond to these three quotes. One, I'm not talking about respecting other people's beliefs, I'm talking about respecting people themselves, as a whole, and not writing them off, or diminishing them, for one component of their character.

Two, pot meet kettle is *exactly* my point, that "us vs them" attitude is just like those of annoying Christians, which is bullshit no mater what; I don't care what your philosophy is! Just because they do it, doesn't make it okay.

Three, I don't hate Atheists, I practically am one myself, I was simply voicing a concern built from real experiences of my own, that *maybe* they are like a sizable portion, but certainly not all, of the outspoken Atheists I've met and discussed with. Maybe they're not, there is only so much you can gather from a short article, I was simply voicing a suspicion. I also, in general, have a suspicion of groups that are exclusive in a social or philosophical way, that exist to push these views on others, or simply create a division or stratification in society. Again, I question, that's all... and isn't that suppose to be the point of this camp you're defending in the first place?

I love the idea of a camp geared toward logic and reasoning, but this place along with a decent portion of atheism (and at least as large a portion of modern Christianity) seems to suffer from the same fixation on beating the opposition. In 2008 if someone who wishes to not believe in a supernatural being opens up the New Testament and doesn't recognize the glaring fact that Christ spoke almost exclusively in parables and metaphors especially when questioned about God then insists on arguing the point that no God exists, they need to go to reading camp first. And I should probably go to run-on sentence camp, btw. It's nowhere near exclusive, but there are people on both sides who can think critically and are just as interested in understanding the (reasoning) folks on the other side as they are in fortifying their set beliefs. Those are the folks I would want to teach my kids.