NEWS: Some Evangelicals Finally Catch On

CULTURE: Some Evangelicals Finally Catch On

I should like to start with a slight apology. I am unable to link directly to the story I am discussing, as The New Yorker does not have all stories from every issue available online. However, the abstract is available, and the complete story can be found in the June 30, 2008 issue, starting on page 28.

Evangelical Christianity has long been a confusing subject for me, and likely for many others. I was raised as a Catholic, went to Sunday School every week until I was 14, then went to Wednesday Night bible meetings for another two years. I've read the Bible, I was an altar boy (no jokes, our priest was a living saint), and even spent a week at a Catholic Bible camp. I tell this so that there is no misunderstanding: I have studied the Bible, from front to back and around again. I am no expert, but I think I have the general idea.

And this is what confuses me. The Bible, at least the New Testament, talks about love, forgiveness, caring for the poor, helping those who need help, loving your neighbor, and generally living a life of peace. There was nothing in there about setting off bombs, killing for Christ, or generally anything about smiting. Quite truthfully, 2008 years ago, smiting was supposed to be right out.

Somewhere, that message got mixed up. And those who did the mixing are quite easy to identify. Go down any bookstore's "Religion" aisle and look at the names: Dr. James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell. These were the men who shaped modern Evangelical Christianity into a political powerhouse for right-wing fundamentalism, known as The Christian Right.

Their followers are fairly easy to find. They are the ones picketing Planned Parenthood buildings, at school board meetings pushing Intelligent Design as a science (I pause, for laughter), and claiming that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation . . . in general, ignoring reality.

But things are changing, but slowly. Frances Fitzgerald, in her article "The New Evangelicals" writes about how the "big names" have bullied their personal agendas into evangelicalism. But there is a change. Lesser known, but up-and-coming preachers are pushing for a return to traditional Christian ministry of working with the poor, the outcast, of being peacemakers. This doesn't mean they are dropping their anti-abortion, anti-homosexual stances, but that they are shifting focus to areas that can be changed instead of areas that cannot. They are talking about curbing global warming, immigration reform (of the good, productive kind, instead of the punishment sort), and denouncing the racism, sexism, and anti-intellectualism long characterized in Christianity.

One of the new leaders in particular, Joel Hunter really impressed me. After he got married, he was well on his way to becoming one of those slick-haired/spray-tanned/smug gits who weep while asking for money, then buy a new fleet of shiny cars for their "personal ministers." But he realized where he was heading and took a position in a parish of 200, who had just lost their own pastor. He took that dying church, poured himself into it, taught his simple, traditional message of helping others, and ended up with a huge multi-national congregation, pretty much without wanting one.

Sadly, this is a slow process. But this is time of change, and it looks like Evangelical Christians are joining in on the change. They are supporting Barack Obama, pitching in at disasters, and are pulling away from the loudest mouths that have been showing the worst side of Religion for the last few decades.

Now, of course, I am not advocating everyone rush out and get saved. Far from it. But, it may be time to re-evaluate some of the stereotypes that keep people who could be allies separated.

Coyotemike has not gone to church in 10 years, and rather enjoys sleeping in on Sunday mornings.

I forgot to add the part where people are instructed to pray alone in their rooms, with the door locked, instead of going around showing how holier-than-thou they are.

It should also be noted that many evangelicals are starting to take Dobson to task for slamming Obama this week.

I consider James Dobson to be one of the more dangerous Christian Right people out there. I am betting that each and every one of those nut-jobs out there that have bombed an abortion clinic or shot a doctor is or was a member of his "Focus on the Family" group.

I figure people like that, on both sides, could bridge the gap between right and left on a lot of issues.

I seem to recall Mike Huckabee being slammed by a lot of conservatives (Ann Coulter despises him, a point in his favor) because he talks about poverty and global warming, views immigration as a complex issue and accepted an endorsement from a union.
I figure people like that, on both sides, could bridge the gap between right and left on a lot of issues.

I read "Catch On Fire" and got so excited only to find out there was no fire.

Maybe next time.

Joel Hunter before moving to the parish of 200 had already built a church from hundreds into thousands.

The New Yorker article was very interesting and you did a great job with it.

Well said. Thanks for this piece.

That is a direct order. Straight from the mouth of Jesus. You heathen.

Whats with all the praying in CHURCH ?!? HuH ?

Sinners. Pffft. Hatin on Jesus.

^^^ yeah, that's the one. I knew it was in there somewhere.

Thank you - coming from a Fundamentalist Baptist upbringing (and, yes, having even taught Sunday School & VBS decades ago), I've seen Evangelicals both on the Far Right as well as many not-so-much far right - sadly, the Far Right ones seem much more vociferous on political issues, while the more moderate or even left-leaning ones work operate on a low-key grassroots level.

Jesus, from the Biblical records, was certainly a man/Man of tolerance - dining with the prostitutes, caring for lepers, replacing the Roman's ear that Peter had lopped off and scolding Peter - eh, you know the deal - unless, of course it had to do with people using Religion for selfish purposes (trashing the moneylenders' tables in the Temple, eg).

That part about USING RELIGION remind anyone of anybody nowadays?

Anyway, thanks, Mike.

+ 1 "raised Fundamentalist" here.

When I was growing up, we never joined a "big" ( >50 people) church because they were "too much about politics and not about God". I learned that you hated sin, loved sinners, helped the poor, looked after the earth, prayed for everybody, and left the world better than you found it.

I left the religion because I couldn't reconcile the "going to hell" part, but I held onto the loving and the helping and the looking after. It's nice to see the Christians with that perspective coming to the fore. I hope it continues.

The basic message of Christianity is great its the people who want me shot for having sex before marriage or believing in different deities that I have problems with.

Exactly. That's what SHOULD be a focus, not overt political agenda. Even the Puritans, the most (usually wrongly) stereotyped early American Colonial Christians did not allow clergyman to so much as attend town meetings., let alone be involved in politics. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to participate, but why pollute a Church service with it?

The churches in which I was raised put the foremost focus on developing a 'personal relationship with Christ,' and second, on living as Christlike an existence as you can.

I'll leave this thread with a quote from Graham Nash:

At best, I say that this will be a useful change. At worst, it's a work in progress.

When I read the first line of this, I rolled my eyes. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that a Catholic, or former, is writing this piece. Now, as someone who grew up in an Assembly of God church (mix of baptist and pentecostal), I am floored that you are broadcasting this notion that reaching out to those who are poor, sick or in desperate situations is a "new" movement for this type of congregation. First of all, all of the Churches that I ever attended made it a top priority to do community out reach. We ALWAYS had programs in the main church that I went to for inner city out reach (i.e. a school bus that was repainted to pick up kids from bad sections of DC and Baltimore on Saturdays to do something productive like roller skating, nature walks, taking Christmas cards to retirement homes, and the older kids in the youth groups often times visited hospitals and spent afternoons with again the elderly or people who were seeing their last days, or packing balanced lunches and handing them out to those less fortunate on the streets.) And, before anyone begins to criticize that these were all manipulative ways to usher impressionable children into the pews, it was not. Sure, we'd say a prayer before engaging in an activity, and over time, the kids would encourage their parents to visit the church on Sunday. More than anything, we just wanted these kids to have a safe place to enjoy being a kid on the weekends and a lot of times after school.

Also, you aren't a BAD Christian as most of you are trying to paint here for NOT supporting Barack Obama. Being a conservative is not abandoning one's beliefs. In fact, a core lesson of the Bible is personal responsibility. That while, yes, one may have free will, just as one has the right to choose, one also has the right to fail. And, those who learn from their failures and attempt to make something better of themselves have truly taken the lesson to heart. Yes, Jesus wants his followers to reach out and care for the poor, the sick, and even our enemies. However, the Bible teaches that we are also to be wise and to learn from that which we repent of. << Also, a core belief of most conservatives......

It should be noted, as well, that there are a TON of Catholics standing outside of the local abortion clinic on Saturdays here in the 'burbs of DC (all of their signs advertise their church affiliation at the bottom )

Rude_Ruca said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

When I read the first line of this, I rolled my eyes. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that a Catholic, or former, is writing this piece. Now, as someone who grew up in an Assembly of God church (mix of baptist and pentecostal), I am floored that you are broadcasting this notion that reaching out to those who are poor, sick or in desperate situations is a "new" movement for this type of congregation. First of all, all of the Churches that I ever attended made it a top priority to do community out reach. We ALWAYS had programs in the main church that I went to for inner city out reach (i.e. a school bus that was repainted to pick up kids from bad sections of DC and Baltimore on Saturdays to do something productive like roller skating, nature walks, taking Christmas cards to retirement homes, and the older kids in the youth groups often times visited hospitals and spent afternoons with again the elderly or people who were seeing their last days, or packing balanced lunches and handing them out to those less fortunate on the streets.) And, before anyone begins to criticize that these were all manipulative ways to usher impressionable children into the pews, it was not. Sure, we'd say a prayer before engaging in an activity, and over time, the kids would encourage their parents to visit the church on Sunday. More than anything, we just wanted these kids to have a safe place to enjoy being a kid on the weekends and a lot of times after school.

Also, you aren't a BAD Christian as most of you are trying to paint here for NOT supporting Barack Obama. Being a conservative is not abandoning one's beliefs. In fact, a core lesson of the Bible is personal responsibility. That while, yes, one may have free will, just as one has the right to choose, one also has the right to fail. And, those who learn from their failures and attempt to make something better of themselves have truly taken the lesson to heart. Yes, Jesus wants his followers to reach out and care for the poor, the sick, and even our enemies. However, the Bible teaches that we are also to be wise and to learn from that which we repent of. << Also, a core belief of most conservatives......

It should be noted, as well, that there are a TON of Catholics standing outside of the local abortion clinic on Saturdays here in the 'burbs of DC (all of their signs advertise their church affiliation at the bottom )

I'm not sure which is worse: the personal attack on me, or the complete miss on what both my article and the one I used are trying to say.

I'm not a churchgoer. But I do think this is a huge step in the right direction, and a fine piece by coyotemike.

coyotemike said:

Rude_Ruca said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

When I read the first line of this, I rolled my eyes. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that a Catholic, or former, is writing this piece. Now, as someone who grew up in an Assembly of God church (mix of baptist and pentecostal), I am floored that you are broadcasting this notion that reaching out to those who are poor, sick or in desperate situations is a "new" movement for this type of congregation. First of all, all of the Churches that I ever attended made it a top priority to do community out reach. We ALWAYS had programs in the main church that I went to for inner city out reach (i.e. a school bus that was repainted to pick up kids from bad sections of DC and Baltimore on Saturdays to do something productive like roller skating, nature walks, taking Christmas cards to retirement homes, and the older kids in the youth groups often times visited hospitals and spent afternoons with again the elderly or people who were seeing their last days, or packing balanced lunches and handing them out to those less fortunate on the streets.) And, before anyone begins to criticize that these were all manipulative ways to usher impressionable children into the pews, it was not. Sure, we'd say a prayer before engaging in an activity, and over time, the kids would encourage their parents to visit the church on Sunday. More than anything, we just wanted these kids to have a safe place to enjoy being a kid on the weekends and a lot of times after school.

Also, you aren't a BAD Christian as most of you are trying to paint here for NOT supporting Barack Obama. Being a conservative is not abandoning one's beliefs. In fact, a core lesson of the Bible is personal responsibility. That while, yes, one may have free will, just as one has the right to choose, one also has the right to fail. And, those who learn from their failures and attempt to make something better of themselves have truly taken the lesson to heart. Yes, Jesus wants his followers to reach out and care for the poor, the sick, and even our enemies. However, the Bible teaches that we are also to be wise and to learn from that which we repent of. << Also, a core belief of most conservatives......

It should be noted, as well, that there are a TON of Catholics standing outside of the local abortion clinic on Saturdays here in the 'burbs of DC (all of their signs advertise their church affiliation at the bottom )

I'm not sure which is worse: the personal attack on me, or the complete miss on what both my article and the one I used are trying to say.

I'll go with the second, personally; it affects a broader area.

SockPuppet said:

coyotemike said:

Rude_Ruca said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

When I read the first line of this, I rolled my eyes. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that a Catholic, or former, is writing this piece. Now, as someone who grew up in an Assembly of God church (mix of baptist and pentecostal), I am floored that you are broadcasting this notion that reaching out to those who are poor, sick or in desperate situations is a "new" movement for this type of congregation. First of all, all of the Churches that I ever attended made it a top priority to do community out reach. We ALWAYS had programs in the main church that I went to for inner city out reach (i.e. a school bus that was repainted to pick up kids from bad sections of DC and Baltimore on Saturdays to do something productive like roller skating, nature walks, taking Christmas cards to retirement homes, and the older kids in the youth groups often times visited hospitals and spent afternoons with again the elderly or people who were seeing their last days, or packing balanced lunches and handing them out to those less fortunate on the streets.) And, before anyone begins to criticize that these were all manipulative ways to usher impressionable children into the pews, it was not. Sure, we'd say a prayer before engaging in an activity, and over time, the kids would encourage their parents to visit the church on Sunday. More than anything, we just wanted these kids to have a safe place to enjoy being a kid on the weekends and a lot of times after school.

Also, you aren't a BAD Christian as most of you are trying to paint here for NOT supporting Barack Obama. Being a conservative is not abandoning one's beliefs. In fact, a core lesson of the Bible is personal responsibility. That while, yes, one may have free will, just as one has the right to choose, one also has the right to fail. And, those who learn from their failures and attempt to make something better of themselves have truly taken the lesson to heart. Yes, Jesus wants his followers to reach out and care for the poor, the sick, and even our enemies. However, the Bible teaches that we are also to be wise and to learn from that which we repent of. << Also, a core belief of most conservatives......

It should be noted, as well, that there are a TON of Catholics standing outside of the local abortion clinic on Saturdays here in the 'burbs of DC (all of their signs advertise their church affiliation at the bottom )

I'm not sure which is worse: the personal attack on me, or the complete miss on what both my article and the one I used are trying to say.

I'll go with the second, personally; it affects a broader area.

I can go along with that.

bald_eagle said:

coyotemike said:

SockPuppet said:

coyotemike said:

Rude_Ruca said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

When I read the first line of this, I rolled my eyes. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that a Catholic, or former, is writing this piece. Now, as someone who grew up in an Assembly of God church (mix of baptist and pentecostal), I am floored that you are broadcasting this notion that reaching out to those who are poor, sick or in desperate situations is a "new" movement for this type of congregation. First of all, all of the Churches that I ever attended made it a top priority to do community out reach. We ALWAYS had programs in the main church that I went to for inner city out reach (i.e. a school bus that was repainted to pick up kids from bad sections of DC and Baltimore on Saturdays to do something productive like roller skating, nature walks, taking Christmas cards to retirement homes, and the older kids in the youth groups often times visited hospitals and spent afternoons with again the elderly or people who were seeing their last days, or packing balanced lunches and handing them out to those less fortunate on the streets.) And, before anyone begins to criticize that these were all manipulative ways to usher impressionable children into the pews, it was not. Sure, we'd say a prayer before engaging in an activity, and over time, the kids would encourage their parents to visit the church on Sunday. More than anything, we just wanted these kids to have a safe place to enjoy being a kid on the weekends and a lot of times after school.

Also, you aren't a BAD Christian as most of you are trying to paint here for NOT supporting Barack Obama. Being a conservative is not abandoning one's beliefs. In fact, a core lesson of the Bible is personal responsibility. That while, yes, one may have free will, just as one has the right to choose, one also has the right to fail. And, those who learn from their failures and attempt to make something better of themselves have truly taken the lesson to heart. Yes, Jesus wants his followers to reach out and care for the poor, the sick, and even our enemies. However, the Bible teaches that we are also to be wise and to learn from that which we repent of. << Also, a core belief of most conservatives......

It should be noted, as well, that there are a TON of Catholics standing outside of the local abortion clinic on Saturdays here in the 'burbs of DC (all of their signs advertise their church affiliation at the bottom )

I'm not sure which is worse: the personal attack on me, or the complete miss on what both my article and the one I used are trying to say.

I'll go with the second, personally; it affects a broader area.

I can go along with that.

I would agree. But I have to note that not one, but two slams against Catholics in the midst of all that talk about reaching out was kind of amusing.

I am just reiterating an observation by many a folk of the protestant, or non-catholic leaning. Furthermore, the same can be said about what was written by the author. In one breath, he criticizes evangelicals picketing outside of Planned Parenthood, but of course goes on to praise their ever growing support of Obama...give me a break.... Furthermore, it is a well known fact that most Catholics think that Evangelicals/Pentecostals/Baptists are lunatics and misinterpret their beliefs in certain practices because of the whole Baptism by Fire debate....

It's a well-known fact that any time someone says "it's a well-known" fact they are completely, 100%, talking out of their ass.

Rude_Ruca said:

bald_eagle said:

coyotemike said:

SockPuppet said:

coyotemike said:

Rude_Ruca said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

When I read the first line of this, I rolled my eyes. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that a Catholic, or former, is writing this piece. Now, as someone who grew up in an Assembly of God church (mix of baptist and pentecostal), I am floored that you are broadcasting this notion that reaching out to those who are poor, sick or in desperate situations is a "new" movement for this type of congregation. First of all, all of the Churches that I ever attended made it a top priority to do community out reach. We ALWAYS had programs in the main church that I went to for inner city out reach (i.e. a school bus that was repainted to pick up kids from bad sections of DC and Baltimore on Saturdays to do something productive like roller skating, nature walks, taking Christmas cards to retirement homes, and the older kids in the youth groups often times visited hospitals and spent afternoons with again the elderly or people who were seeing their last days, or packing balanced lunches and handing them out to those less fortunate on the streets.) And, before anyone begins to criticize that these were all manipulative ways to usher impressionable children into the pews, it was not. Sure, we'd say a prayer before engaging in an activity, and over time, the kids would encourage their parents to visit the church on Sunday. More than anything, we just wanted these kids to have a safe place to enjoy being a kid on the weekends and a lot of times after school.

Also, you aren't a BAD Christian as most of you are trying to paint here for NOT supporting Barack Obama. Being a conservative is not abandoning one's beliefs. In fact, a core lesson of the Bible is personal responsibility. That while, yes, one may have free will, just as one has the right to choose, one also has the right to fail. And, those who learn from their failures and attempt to make something better of themselves have truly taken the lesson to heart. Yes, Jesus wants his followers to reach out and care for the poor, the sick, and even our enemies. However, the Bible teaches that we are also to be wise and to learn from that which we repent of. << Also, a core belief of most conservatives......

It should be noted, as well, that there are a TON of Catholics standing outside of the local abortion clinic on Saturdays here in the 'burbs of DC (all of their signs advertise their church affiliation at the bottom )

I'm not sure which is worse: the personal attack on me, or the complete miss on what both my article and the one I used are trying to say.

I'll go with the second, personally; it affects a broader area.

I can go along with that.

I would agree. But I have to note that not one, but two slams against Catholics in the midst of all that talk about reaching out was kind of amusing.

I am just reiterating an observation by many a folk of the protestant, or non-catholic leaning. Furthermore, the same can be said about what was written by the author. In one breath, he criticizes evangelicals picketing outside of Planned Parenthood, but of course goes on to praise their ever growing support of Obama...give me a break.... Furthermore, it is a well known fact that most Catholics think that Evangelicals/Pentecostals/Baptists are lunatics and misinterpret their beliefs in certain practices because of the whole Baptism by Fire debate....

Did you somehow miss that I was talking about two seperate types of evangelicals, those who use their beliefs as a balm of peace versus those who use their beliefs as a battering ram of self righteousness?

Really? Then I'll tell ya what...when you get the chance....tommorrow, ask anyone that you know who happens to be a Catholic what their views are pertaining to Baptism of Fire and Pentecostals and Baptists......let me know how that goes and then you'll see that I am not talking out of my ass so much....