Martix Reloaded...

I searched the boards and did not find anyone discussing this yet, so I figured I would start it here. The Matrix Reloaded is being released on DVD Tuesday and I had a chance to watch it again today. The question I need to ask now is, Why do so many people hate this movie? In particular, the ones who loved the first one, why did you hate this one?

Were the answers, and questions, they gave you in Reloaded not what you wanted to hear? Did you have a different vision of the movie? Did you not understand it? I have now had 5 months to talk and argue with people about the movie and now that I have seen it again I need to ask again. Why?

If you haven't seen it, go rent or buy it tuesday.

So now after months of thinking I want to talk about the movie a bit. It is off course a action movie, but it is more, and that is why it is so fucking good. It is definately philosophical, and definately on that note, takes a bit from religion. I'm not here to argue religion because I do not feel it is my, or anyone elses, place to push on that. So we are going to look at the movie, as well as the religious undertones as complete fiction. So here we go. If at anytime you can't take this anymore just scroll to the bottom and post your hate, but I would really love to hear a honest, thoughtful reason why someone hated this movie.

Ok, so Neo-savior figure. We all got that from the first one. So why do people reject it in the second one?

The architect-father of the martix-God? He created the matrix, and in such man. During his speech he talks about the creation of the matrix, the perfection of the matrix. He then mentions the Oracle.

The Oracle-guidance, defiance? The architect mentions her as the mother of the matrix. Also as the creator of the anomaly. The woman is at fault for the corrupting of his perfect creation. Original Sin? Is it comming together yet? Also, here the architect looks pretty disturbed by this entire corruption thing, vengful God maybe? This neverending circle of imperfection and death. Until, there is a change, a savior? someone who made a choice out of love, hope maybe....

The movies, reloaded especially, is all centered around destiny, fate. The entire movie pushes this all the way until the end when you realize that we do have a choice. Neo has the choice of a door. So what happened to fate? Free Will maybe? You can only be led but so far, shown the path, but then you have to make your own path, your own choice? Sounds like free will to me...this is also where they add in the earlier mentioned love and hope. "Both, the source of mankinds greatest strength, and their greatest weakness."

And one last thing about Neo, as shown at the end of the movie. Neo, the one, the son of both man and anomoly, love and hope. Christ figure? Pretty obvious, they spent be better part of the first two movies calling him "The One" the savior of Zion. Oh Oh Oh and Zion. By definition, an idealized, harmonious community, utopia, a place or religious community regarded as sacredly devoted to God. I can't wait to see the next one to see how they play this savior thing out. I would bet just about anything that Neo dies though...wait, change that, sacrifices himself to save man...

Ok, well this is just one look on the matrix, as a work of fiction, fun, thoughtful. I love the idea of a mainstream movie having more than just guns, blood, and gore, not to say that there is anything wrong with it, I love guts and gore just as much as the next guy. I would say that these movies hit on just about everything. How can people not like this? Please let me hear it. Your views, your hate, your reason.

Keep on rockin'
-J

I had never considered that the Oracle might Parellel eve in Eden. Bravo.

I'd agree with most of that. I doubt Neo will die, however. He's already undergone the whole execution/resurrection shenanigans in the first film. In a sense, he's already 'transfigured'. I'd be willing to put money on Morpheus copping it, however. As a part of the whole "Hero's Journey" archetype if nothing else.

It's a big load of balls. Marketed at people like us! Not a well made film, but had kind of sociological theme. It just doesn't push the buttons the first one does, in retrospect, looking back at the first Matrix film, it seems really cliched and irrelevant post 9/11.

OK... now I have no axe to grind with people not liking The Matrix Reloaded, but what the hell has 9/11 got to do with it??? Should every film have some theme of anti-terrorist sentiment in it or something?

I originally thought about Morpheus being the one taking it, but I think he is gonna fit into the "renewed faith" role. I would go with this only because of his "blind" devotion to the prophecy for the entire first two movies, and then at the end of reloaded he was told it was all a lie. Definately devistated. I'm really interested to see how they play out Morpheus's renewed faith in the last movie. I wouldn't be surprised if he died, just not in the same context as Neo.

Also, something I forgot in the earlier post, I am interested to see what the do with Smith in the next one. Considering the power struggle. Christ/Lucifer.
Neo: What do you want?
Smith: I want what you want. I want everything.
In the new preview for the Revolution, they show Neo talking to the head machine, talking about Smith being the problem and he can help. Lucifer, power struggle, corruption. The sacrifice(crucifixion) finally sending Lucifer to hell once and for all. Neo-sacrifice-destroy or "contain" Smith-save mankind.
It is definately a possibility if they are going to continue with this.
-J

If I might ask, What buttons did the first one push?
also,
What IS relevant post 9/11? I do not see what this has to do with movies, or this on in particular. I do not feel that people will, or should allow 9/11 to change their tastes, beliefs, or lives. Call me heartless, Life goes on...

The Lucifer thing is an interesting idea, but I don't see it myself. Smith is definately the 'Shaitan' or chaotic aspect of the films, but I don't see him as a Satan-figure at all. He isn't rebelling, for a start. In fact, he is frustrated at his lack of ability to conform and return back to the Source. Someone like The Merovingian is far closer to a Lucifer-style figure, obsessed with personal freedom, power, choice and who has set up their own encrypted domain within the confines of the Machine-created reality.

I don't really know why I brought up the "Hero's Journey" archetype. On reflection, The Matrix series doesn't actually reflect that particularly strongly. Within the boundaries of the first film it was possible to see it, with Morpheus' sacrifice for Neo already made (albeit with him being rescued).

[Edited on Oct 11, 2003 by matt_organic]

I agree with the view on the Merovingian, however I would still lead the other way. I would say that the Merovingian plays a different role. I'm not sure exactly where to fit him in, I know he will play a role in the next one though. I think he probably just fits in under powerhungry man, maybe even a aside to religious exploitation. Exploiting the rules for power, think early when Church ruled everything, or even the Pope for that matter. I think we really can't determine his place until the next movie.
I still would lean towards Smith. Definately not rebelling now, but he did in the first one. He wanted out in the first one, like in the scene with him and Morpheus in the first one. So now the rebellion thing is out of the way, vengence and powerstruggle back in. However, none of this can be proved until the next movie is out, or ever since we are just putting out twist on the movie.

The question I need to ask now is, Why do so many people hate this movie? In particular, the ones who loved the first one, why did you hate this one?

because they suck

[Edited on Oct 11, 2003 by _mike_]

Oh, and one more thing to add matt_organic on the Lucifer thing.
Smith has possessed, or taken over, the human in reloaded...I don't remember his name. That character then betrayed man, by blasting the EMP which allowed the sentinals to crush the fleet. It is always said that Judas was influenced, or possessed, by Lucifer durring his betrayal of Christ.

Is it? Not in the Gospels I've read or the Biblical Studies I have qualifications in the influence of Lucifer in the story of Christ is a Medieval construction, as indeed is the importance of Lucifer in the Bible in general. Having said that, the Wachowskis are basing any subtexts within the film into a current context, and therefore if that's how they perceive the story of Judas then you're probably spot on in their symbolism.

Ok...let me rephrase that influenced statement. We will take the thirty pieces of silver as a sign of power. Money-power-greed. Then after when Judas hanged himself, his guilt would suggest remorse for something he would not normally have done in his "right" mind, in such-he was influenced by a powerstruggle, a symbol representative of Lucifer.

Edited because I originally spelled rephrase like a re-re

[Edited on Oct 11, 2003 by TheHaunted]

Mebbe it is the pseudo-philosophical ramblings and cold sterility.

Or mebbe it is the continuation of oft-masculine objectives ie., violence as the logical end result of strife, subjugation of women, the existence of polar religiositical opposites, etc..

Or mebbe it's that people waste breath explicating the movie's pseudo-philosophical ramblings when there are so many better films and books that have dealt with the same subjects in a more subtle manner. Dark City, La Jetee, nearly all of Philip K Dick's writings, Seconds by Frankheimer....

There is nothing that wrong with the storyline of the film, but there are many overdone bits which you can notice, when neo is fighting all the agents you can totally tell its CG not good considering how much they spent, the bike trinity rides to get away from the agents should just blast off into the distance instead of barely being able to outrun a truck. If they hadnt overdone it with what they could do with the CG it would have been a lot better movie, it didnt help from my point of view that X-Men 2 came out not long before and did everything soooo much better.

Mabye it is the correct spelling of maybe....

It is a subject that has been dealt with over and over and over....I am discussing this particular movie because it comes out tuesday and there is a overwhelming response of hatred towards it....

And I gave you reasons. Menne of them.

I loved the first movie but the second one left me just feeling uncomfortable in a cinema seat rather than having any real jaw-dropping buzz.

It was just too long and by that I am not necessarily talking running time for sitting through TTT the time seemed to fly, by too long I mean they just overdid it too much. Take the multiple Agent Smith fight, it was okay for a minute or two but then just went so far beyond ridiculous that it became tiresome (and also very obviously CG moments). Same with the incredible freeway sequence... up, down, up, down... repeat.

Also, one of the main issues is that you never really felt any of the main characters were in any danger because it was super-Neo to the rescue. It all became too easy and too convenient.

And to be true not being a religious person all the religious backing to it became a little too much for me to take, especially the whole Zion "we're probably going to die but lets show them" incident.

I had a gut feeling from the first film that what we believe to be outside the matrix is not and the second film only backed that up further, I am half expecting the third one to have an Exiztence type ending now.

One thing does trouble me though and has me thinking, in the final confrontation with the Architect he talks about the mother of the matrix and Neo mentions the Oracle's name... well the reaction of the Architect was kind of "oh please, dont be so dumb". Currently pondering the thought that it is actually Trinity that is the mother of the matrix.

I found the original Matrix film to be the most visually impressive and impacting film since the release of the (proper) Star Wars movie, but the second one was just blah and apart from the above I just cannot explain why that is.

I definately agree with the super-Neo always there thing, but I still felt there were times of vulnerablity. I had also given thought to the Matrix in a Matrix thing, like you stated a existenz ending. Maybe so, we will just have to wait to find out.

As for the Trinity "mother" statement, I had also looked at this, but inevitably took the Architect's reaction as a disgust to the name. It is still totally a possibilty though.

Thanks for actually giving a reason for not liking it and not just saying "it sucks."

I didn't care for Reloaded too much because I thought 80% of the action was superfluous and the philisophical arguments were pretty trite. It also would've carried a bit less weight if I hadn't seen the Animatrix (which I thought was awsome) first.

Actually he does die in Revolutions.

I couldnt agree more.

Jesus christ people, its just a movie, your gonna love it or your gonna hate it..