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Bill_the_Cat

Bill_the_Cat

Vanier, ON
May 2005

DEC 15, 2007 09:20 AM

I think it's time to close this thread, already.

atomicant

atomicant

Portland, OR
June 2003

DEC 15, 2007 10:02 AM

it's threads like these that make me avoid the boards, but this one was particularly fantastic.

subrosa, thank you for being the indignant rage dwelling deep in heart. oyaji, thanks for being the simple legal logic that was living in my brain.

and flux, i don't want to be too jdm here, but thanks for continually kicking ass.

Bill_the_Cat

Bill_the_Cat

Vanier, ON
May 2005

DEC 15, 2007 10:09 AM

atomicant said:
it's threads like these that make me avoid the boards, but this one was particularly fantastic.

subrosa, thank you for being the indignant rage dwelling deep in heart. oyaji, thanks for being the simple legal logic that was living in my brain.

and flux, i don't want to be too jdm here, but thanks for continually kicking ass.



Also Thank you varukasalt for not being afraid of being wrong. It's a human trait that too few people are willing to risk, and even less to admit to.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

DEC 15, 2007 07:05 PM

Ascanius said:
Hey! You two!

First, Subrosa, the "this shit" Freak was clearly talking about was people attacking Veruka for blaming the victim after V issued a formal and public apology. The guy said some things we disagree with, we let him know it. Let's let it rest. Surely you can disagree with him on plenty of valid points without deliberately misreading his posts.


Actually, no. It was before varukasalt made his apology (which was appreciated when it was made). Regardless, it's not like he (SirPsychoSexy) should be responsible for reading the entirety of the other threads. His comment was completely, 100% appropriate because varukasalt was, in the comment he responded to, blaming the victim. TheFreak just said it was shit because, as I alluded to before, he isn't willing to accept that people can react to this strongly. To him, if they are they must be misreading the thread (see his overwhelmingly condescending response to Necia, for example) or being obtuse (see everything else).

I'm really not deliberately misreading anything here. I'm not going to respond to anything he says to me because it's so far beyond the point of anything that it's not worth my time. So in that sense I'll let it rest, but I stand by my statements above.

Second, Freak, you just spent four paragraphs bickering and making personal attacks and followed it up with a paragraph about how sick of the personal attacks you are.

C'mon, guys. We're better than this. Or if we're not, let's bicker in our journals.



Dude, I like you man, and I appreciate where you're coming from, but frankly it's not your (or Freak's or anyone's) place to say when this conversation should be over. I appreciate why some people would want to walk away from it and if that's the case, they should. Some of those folks should now walk away with their heads higher than others, but that doesn't mean things are necessarily done.

I think it's tragic that a story like this could devolve into a discussion like this and I've taken responsibility in private for the part I played in that. That said, those ideas that created it are still out there. This story is still there, and if people want to talk, express or react to it I think that they should do just that.

Flux

Flux

SUICIDEGIRL

Georgia, USA

DEC 15, 2007 07:16 PM

atomicant said:
and flux, i don't want to be too jdm here, but thanks for continually kicking ass/butt.



I fixed it for you.

Ascanius

Ascanius

USA
October 2006

DEC 15, 2007 07:46 PM

edit/ PMed instead.

thefreak

thefreak

NEWSWIRE

Gardner, MA

DEC 15, 2007 08:40 PM

Subrosa said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
Actually, no. It was before varukasalt made his apology (which was appreciated when it was made). Regardless, it's not like he (SirPsychoSexy) should be responsible for reading the entirety of the other threads. His comment was completely, 100% appropriate because varukasalt was, in the comment he responded to, blaming the victim. TheFreak just said it was shit because, as I alluded to before, he isn't willing to accept that people can react to this strongly. To him, if they are they must be misreading the thread (see his overwhelmingly condescending response to Necia, for example) or being obtuse (see everything else).

I'm really not deliberately misreading anything here. I'm not going to respond to anything he says to me because it's so far beyond the point of anything that it's not worth my time. So in that sense I'll let it rest, but I stand by my statements above.

Dude, I like you man, and I appreciate where you're coming from, but frankly it's not your (or Freak's or anyone's) place to say when this conversation should be over. I appreciate why some people would want to walk away from it and if that's the case, they should. Some of those folks should now walk away with their heads higher than others, but that doesn't mean things are necessarily done.

I think it's tragic that a story like this could devolve into a discussion like this and I've taken responsibility in private for the part I played in that. That said, those ideas that created it are still out there. This story is still there, and if people want to talk, express or react to it I think that they should do just that.


*deep breath*

I hoped my last post in this thread would indeed be my last post, but I feel the need to follow varukasalt's example, for the sake of karma and my blood pressure.

I may have expressed myself wrong. I let personal experiences and my emotions get the better of me. I do not regret defending varukasalt, and I still contend there were better ways to convey opinions than hurling insults. We can all agree the discussion got way out of hand. My "shit" comment was not directed @the continuation of the discussion as a whole, nor am I not "unable to accept" that a discussion like this can evoke strong reactions in the reader. But, as I noted here, I just wanted the shit-slinging to end. And I tried to walk away, because I knew it was getting to me. The only reason I responded to you as I did was I felt your (and others) comments which were then directed towards me were unwarranted, and I defended myself and my character. I could've responded differently, I could've responded in a more civil manner. And for that, I apologize. But I stand by my reasons for them. I know who I am, and nobody can truly tell me otherwise.

You, or anyone else can choose to do whatever you wish w/this post. You can accept it, or you can ignore it and move on. I don't care. I'm done. There needs to be bigger priorities in my life then adding more stress because people on the Internet may not like me or things I've said.

And, with that, I reiterate my (originally) final thought on the matter.

There is a 7-year-old girl who probably showed more heart and bravery than many of us will every display in our lives, and I wish nothing less for her than a speedy recovery and a chance to go on w/her life and to hopefully put this horrific event behind her if @all possible.


-TM

Tallboy66

Tallboy66

Chicago, IL
January 2005

DEC 15, 2007 08:56 PM

Although it looks lie you're involved in another in fight a correction:


Detroit even beat Iraq out in one year for the number of Americans killed.



I think it was the only place where more Americans were killed was in Iraq, making Detroit 2nd.

halucinosis

halucinosis

Korea, Republic Of
March 2006

DEC 16, 2007 09:23 AM

Blame and fault remind me of shame and sin, good/bad, black/white. I am right you are wrong. You will burn in the fires of hell. I have a mansion in the sky with 40 virgins waiting for me. Jesus fucking christ this reminds me of church. I hate church.

The saddest story will be when you hear that Salietha and her daughter were gunned down by her next boyfriend. "I mean, he was wanted for armed robbery in Mississippi but it's not my fault he shot me."

Who gives a fuck about fault?! What about common sense and learning through life experience? I hope that once Salietha heals she will probably be much more selective about future boyfriends. Not because it was in any way her fault, but because it makes sense. I think it's healthy to look at how our decisions affected the outcome of a situation. Sometimes violence happens and there is nothing we could have done to prevent it. But that doesn't mean we can't try.

I am not going to wait around for 911, correctional institutions, the government, or society to get their shit together. I can't judge Salietha. It's not her fault she and her daughter got shot. I hope she and her daughter recover and never have to go through this again. But I will learn from what happened to her.

(Nevertheless, I have had look at why Varukasalt's initial comments resonated so strongly with me and why I got so frustrated with your opposing viewpoint, Flux. My perspective on life is filtered through my experiences as a man.)

Bill_the_Cat

Bill_the_Cat

Vanier, ON
May 2005

DEC 16, 2007 09:54 AM

Bill_the_Cat said:
I think it's time to close this thread, already.



xfinitex

xfinitex

East Lansing, MI
August 2005

DEC 16, 2007 10:11 PM

SonOfAPunk

SonOfAPunk

Maple Ridge, BC
January 2006

DEC 17, 2007 11:27 AM

halucinosis said:
Who gives a fuck about fault?! What about common sense and learning through life experience? I hope that once Salietha heals she will probably be much more selective about future boyfriends. Not because it was in any way her fault, but because it makes sense. I think it's healthy to look at how our decisions affected the outcome of a situation. Sometimes violence happens and there is nothing we could have done to prevent it. But that doesn't mean we can't try.



Yeah playing the blame game sure is petty, a tragedy did happen afterall. But I see what both sides are saying here...

It just amazes me how often a blind eye is turned towards foresight.

Sure, how would she have known this would have happened, right? And what if he was a really stand-up guy and could be a great father figure for her child? Could she really pass that up? What if she loved the asshole?

Who knows.

But it's just common sense. Take care of yourself and the people you love, and don't associate yourself with no-goodnicks.

Again, it's called foresight. It's partially responsible for allowing us to evolve as much as we have... Which brings me to:

halucinosis said:
I am not going to wait around for 911, correctional institutions, the government, or society to get their shit together. I can't judge Salietha. It's not her fault she and her daughter got shot. I hope she and her daughter recover and never have to go through this again. But I will learn from what happened to her.



Again, Psychology courses have taught me that memory, pain receptors, and conditioning are what allowed us to evolve as much as we have today.

We won't keep touching the pointy stick if we remember that it damages our body, hurts us, and we don't like how that feels.

So take it as a learning experience... Let's not make the same mistake, here...

Hindsight is crystal clear.

And let's hope for the best for these individuals.

Squire

Squire

I'm lost
November 2003

DEC 17, 2007 02:48 PM

SonOfAPunk said:

halucinosis said:
Who gives a fuck about fault?! What about common sense and learning through life experience? I hope that once Salietha heals she will probably be much more selective about future boyfriends. Not because it was in any way her fault, but because it makes sense. I think it's healthy to look at how our decisions affected the outcome of a situation. Sometimes violence happens and there is nothing we could have done to prevent it. But that doesn't mean we can't try.



Yeah playing the blame game sure is petty, a tragedy did happen afterall. But I see what both sides are saying here...

It just amazes me how often a blind eye is turned towards foresight.

Sure, how would she have known this would have happened, right? And what if he was a really stand-up guy and could be a great father figure for her child? Could she really pass that up? What if she loved the asshole?

Who knows.

But it's just common sense. Take care of yourself and the people you love, and don't associate yourself with no-goodnicks.

Again, it's called foresight. It's partially responsible for allowing us to evolve as much as we have... Which brings me to:

halucinosis said:
I am not going to wait around for 911, correctional institutions, the government, or society to get their shit together. I can't judge Salietha. It's not her fault she and her daughter got shot. I hope she and her daughter recover and never have to go through this again. But I will learn from what happened to her.



Again, Psychology courses have taught me that memory, pain receptors, and conditioning are what allowed us to evolve as much as we have today.

We won't keep touching the pointy stick if we remember that it damages our body, hurts us, and we don't like how that feels.

So take it as a learning experience... Let's not make the same mistake, here...

Hindsight is crystal clear.

And let's hope for the best for these individuals.



You know, when you're late to the party it is ok to refrain from saying everything that occurs to you.

Tallboy66

Tallboy66

Chicago, IL
January 2005

DEC 18, 2007 10:59 AM

No factual facts but I think I remember an incident where a police station was broken into and robbed surreal

And I do think that a station on John R. has razor wire around it, and it's not to keep people in.

#1

defaultx

defaultx

I'm lost
February 2006
Otoki

Otoki

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

FEB 19, 2008 12:04 AM

I'm not going to read through nine pages of hissy-fit, so here's my .02:

While it may be irritating and insensitive to hone in on the mother's choice in dates, it's idiotic to equate all mention of that to victim-blaming. Some of these posts are clearly people putting all the blame solely on the mother for endangering her child, and that is callous and mind-blowingly obtuse.

I think it's fucked up that this dude shot both the woman and her child. I think it's fucked up that this woman thought it appropriate to bring this dude into her and, subsequently, her child's life. I think it's fucked up that this woman can't afford her own transportation. I think it's fucked up that she had no heat. You see, this WHOLE SITUATION is fucked up in lots of big ways, all of which paint a story of violence, poverty, and a child getting hurt in the end.

This knee-jerk reaction of ignoring the mother's responsibility for endangering her child is disingenuous, and dangerous.

The mother is a victim of violence, and her daughter is a victim of violence from the assault, and negligence on the part of her irresponsible mother.

I work with LOTS of women, many of whom make ridiculously stupid decisions (drugs, dating criminals, wasting their money, etc). I've had to adopt a "Tell them Once" policy, where after my first attempt to persuade them to be less self-destructive, my ethical responsibilities end there. But that's damned hard to do when these women's poor decisions are directly affecting their children. Once you become a parent, you are responsible for the child's well-being until they're mature enough to handle the big bad world themselves.

That means not bringing the boyfriend home until it's serious (having a new "uncle" every three months doesn't do much to add stability to a child's life), not doing drugs, and saving your fucking money in every way you know how, including getting help from the government if necessary. That means finding out if your partner is parent material before you let them be in contact with your kids. That means that if you make enough money to squirrel some away fucking PUT DOWN THE COACH PURSE and put it in a fucking college fund.

Obviously, some of this is coming from my frustration with my co-worker's irresponsible behavior, but especially because I see how these bad decisions are affecting these kids all the time, it infuriates me that it is considered unacceptable to point out the PARENT's negligence in the matter. This would be the case regardless of the parent's gender.

Otoki

Otoki

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

FEB 19, 2008 12:32 AM

Edit expired, but to clarify:
The parent's negligence in the matter is a factor. It doesn't excuse the crime, but simply adds negligence of the mother on top of attempted-murder on the gunman's part.

This does not place the blame for the assault on the mother. The blame lies solely with the shooter. It does boggle my mind that the mother dated a douche like this for SIX MONTHS, thus endangering her daughter either through apathy towards his criminal record or lack of research (for the record, asking around about a person's rep is free).

All the girls I work with who are with bad partners knew they were drug-dealers/mooches/abusive BEFORE they got into the relationship, but they didn't care because they found them attractive. That's why I'm far less likely to jump down people's throats when they express astonishment at this PARENT's decision to bring a criminal into their domestic life. Because there's just as good a chance that they thought of their own happiness over their child's welfare. When you have a kid, you'd better think HARD and get your info before you bring that person into your home to function (inadvertantly) as a parent figure.

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

FEB 19, 2008 04:31 AM

Oh goddammit, out of all the threads to get bumped...why this one?

Why?

Quirky

Quirky

Birmingham, AL
October 2005

FEB 19, 2008 04:53 AM

Morgan said:
Oh goddammit, out of all the threads to get bumped...why this one?

Why?



That's just how Otoki rolls.

Varuka_Salt

Varuka_Salt

I'm lost
October 2006

FEB 19, 2008 08:00 AM

Holy fuck!! PLEASE LOCK THIS!!!!! I'M IN ENOUGH SHIT ALREADY!!!!!!

PLEASE LOCK THIS SHIT!!!

willam9

willam9

Philadelphia, PA
January 2008

FEB 19, 2008 08:49 AM

i agreed with otoki...at first. then i went back and read some more of bitch_phd's threads and realized that no woman ever holds any culpability in any bad situation...ever!!!!
whatever

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