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11/28/07

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skeeve

skeeve

Boston, MA
September 2006

DEC 02, 2007 10:32 AM


  • Positive Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of experiencing a positive condition. For example:

    A hungry rat presses a bar in its cage and receives food. The food is a positive condition for the hungry rat. The rat presses the bar again, and again receives food. The rat's behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of receiving food.

  • In Negative Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of stopping or avoiding a negative condition. For example:


    A rat is placed in a cage and immediately receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses a bar and the shock stops. The rat receives another shock, presses the bar again, and again the shock stops. The rat's behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of stopping the shock.

  • In Punishment a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of experiencing a negative condition. For example:

    A rat presses a bar in its cage and receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again receives a shock. The rat's behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of receiving a shock.

  • In Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition. For example:

    A rat presses a bar in its cage and nothing happens. Neither a positive or a negative condition exists for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again nothing happens. The rat's behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing anything positive or stopping anything negative.



-Definitions from here.

These are the four main concepts of operant conditioning. Prisons only use punishment. Perhaps we should attempt to work the others in somehow?

soulcompromise

soulcompromise

I'm lost
November 2006

DEC 02, 2007 10:48 AM

I think children who are better educated can make better choices. It's harder to become better educated though if your parents aren't educated. I think more mentoring in schools and some programs or something would solve some of that, but there are always going to be kids that are hard to reach. If you're immersed in violence from age 1 it's a little hard to do anything without succumbing to violence. Same with drugs.

NewSpectre

NewSpectre

Baltimore, MD
March 2005

DEC 02, 2007 11:40 AM

StarBelliedBoy said:

DeadOfWinter said:
Our country has one of the worse prison systems in the world because it does nothing to deter criminals from committing crimes.



The threat of ass-rape, daily beatings and being murdered aren't a deterrent? I don't understand people.



For most hardened criminals, no they aren't. that's just the stuff that we fluffy law abiding citizens think of when we think of prison.

Chainlink

Chainlink

Key West, FL
August 2005

DEC 02, 2007 12:08 PM

bald_eagle said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Chainlink said:

bald_eagle said:
The OP seems to leave the impression that juveniles going through the adult criminal-justice process means they go to adult prisons. As the linked article says, that is not the case.



From the article

"The juvenile correctional system is more rehabilitative or treatment- oriented," says Donna Bishop, a criminal justice professor at Northeastern University in Boston. "The adult system, for the most part is a warehouse where (kids) spend a great deal of time with older, more seasoned, more serious offenders, many of whom talk about becoming a better criminal."

Reginald Dwayne Betts knows firsthand. He spent more than eight years behind bars in Virginia for an armed carjacking. An honors student who had never been in trouble with the police, he says he expected he might be sent to a juvenile detention center or even receive a suspended sentence.

Instead, he was tried as an adult. When he was originally sentenced to 23 years, he says, he didn't know the difference between the terms "consecutive" and "concurrent."

Locked up at 16, Betts spent most of his time in adult prisons.

"Of course it makes a difference if you're 15, 16 or 17," he says. "You're not prepared to deal with it physically or emotionally. You're trying to deal with being away from home. You're trying to deal with the stress that comes with being in prison."



and while this doesn't speak for every case it agrees with my personal experience. If they decide to try you as an adult that means adult time.


It does, on occasion. In my opinion, that should NEVER happen.

But the article did state that juveniles going to adult prison is not the norm.

Studies show they account for about 5 percent of all juvenile arrests. Drugs, burglary, theft and other property crimes are among the more common reasons teens are prosecuted in adult courts.

Most of these kids, though, don't end up in adult prison, according to the Campaign for Youth Justice.




Reading your quote a little more in context :

Though juvenile crime tends to evoke images of gangs and murder, violent teens are the exception.

Studies show they account for about 5 percent of all juvenile arrests. Drugs, burglary, theft and other property crimes are among the more common reasons teens are prosecuted in adult courts.

Most of these kids, though, don't end up in adult prison, according to the Campaign for Youth Justice. A study the group commissioned of 40 large court jurisdictions in the country looked at teen felony cases in 1998 and found between a third and a half had no conviction or were bounced back to juvenile court.



I see they are referring to 5% of all juvenile arrests are for violent crimes. It has nothing at all to do with how many juveniles go to adult prison. And that the reason most juveniles charged as adults don't get sent to adult prisons is because they were sent back to juvenile court.

Way to pull a quote out of context and totally misrepresent it. But yeah, most juveniles are not normally sent to adult prisons, or courts.

lefthandright

lefthandright

New Zealand
September 2006

DEC 02, 2007 02:53 PM

200.000 children to go prison each year in the u.s.a. That is a damn sight better than other countries like Saudi Arabia or thailand or singapore or turkey.. where even a misdemeanor, such as carrying pot in small amounts could get you executed, or a good ol' public whipping, your hands cut off... maybe even a stoning..

case in point, a foreign youth in singapore while traveling was convicted of stealing a street sign,...a fucking street sign,..for his punishment, 25 lashes (most people die between 34-40)...so in other words he was beaten to within an inch of his life. When amnesty international intervened, they were given the big fuck off and the boy was only whipped 18 times and sent back to germany.

A little perspective maybe needed here to show the harsh reality of how bad prison is,..it is not that bad in comparison to how these kids would be dealt with in other cultures.

Ascanius

Ascanius

USA
October 2006

DEC 02, 2007 03:00 PM

lefthandright said:
200.000 children to go prison each year in the u.s.a. That is a damn sight better than other countries like Saudi Arabia or thailand or singapore or turkey.. where even a misdemeanor, such as carrying pot in small amounts could get you executed, or a good ol' public whipping, your hands cut off... maybe even a stoning..

case in point, a foreign youth in singapore while traveling was convicted of stealing a street sign,...a fucking street sign,..for his punishment, 25 lashes (most people die between 34-40)...so in other words he was beaten to within an inch of his life. When amnesty international intervened, they were given the big fuck off and the boy was only whipped 18 times and sent back to germany.

A little perspective maybe needed here to show the harsh reality of how bad prison is,..it is not that bad in comparison to how these kids would be dealt with in other cultures.



I wonder what the rate of recidivism, incarcerations per capita, etc. are for a place like Singapore compared to the United States. I don't have an axe to grind, and I certainly have no idea one way or the other, but if the occasional caning has a tremendous impact, do you think it'd be acceptable? I mean, if it's a matter of incarcerating twenty children, thereby very nearly sealing their larcenous fates, versus flogging one child and sending him on his way, well I wonder which is more humane.

Maybe I've just been reading too much Robert Heinlein lately. surreal

Cheyenne

Cheyenne

SUICIDEGIRL

USA

DEC 02, 2007 04:08 PM

skeeve said:

Cheyenne said:

herbancowboy said:

Cheyenne said:
I just don't see how 18 is such a magic number


Try reading on for size:

They're responding to new research on the adolescent brain, and studies that indicate teens sent to adult court end up worse off than those who are not: They get in trouble more often, they do it faster and the offenses are more serious.



i do read...alot actually...funny, though...how apparently the brain is fully developed just overnight...from 17 to 18... Sorry..I don't buy it. At all. Your brain is around 95% fully developed at birth...and if it is murder we are talking about, then a 13 year old knows better. Period. A five year old knows better. Playing WWF and Oops someone gets hurt is one thing but going out and killing someone just for fun is another.



From the little that I remember of my psychology classes it's not so much that the brain develops over-night but that it develops around that time.
17-19 is the typical age for an identity crisis where a person undergoes some serious changes in the way they think, act, and actually forge an identity for themselves.

It's a process that takes place over a year or two. So people in this age range need to be very closely scrutinized. It's a difficult call. 18 is just a number for the books, judges are supposed to interpret things.

It is notable that some people have an identity crisis much younger. The eldest in a single parent house-hold frequently assumes a parental role and will tend to "grow up" a lot faster because of it. Other kinds of trauma (sickness, natural disaster, etc) can also have this effect.

So it's not that people under 18 are magically exempt either. But it does seem like a good age to draw the line of scrutiny on.



If I can digress, the age I never understood was 21. I can't think of a single logical reason for why 21 should be the drinking age. But my opinion may be a bit biased blush


which is what i was trying to get people to realize.
And arguement for 21: there really is a difference in the mentality of a 21 year old and an 18 year old. That, I will give you. plus, if it is 18, then highschool students would be able to drink. Not a good idea.

ndklinst

ndklinst

New Albany, IN
February 2007

DEC 02, 2007 06:27 PM

Cheyenne said:
I just don't see how 18 is such a magic number...If these kids purposely killed someone, they don't belong in society.



Agreed.

Alfaduetto

Alfaduetto

Greeneville, TN
May 2004

DEC 02, 2007 06:57 PM

As the last Arch bishop of Canterberry said shortly before Henry VIII cut his head off:
"If you subvert the law to fight a perceived evil, and than evil turns and comes after you, then you no longer have the law to protect you". Laws protecting children from society had been put in place by far smarter people than us, why do we need to remove that protection now if it was considered needed for so long? Although I guess they could pick up a few pointers from older and wiser sociopaths while in prison. puke

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

DEC 02, 2007 08:20 PM


skeeve

skeeve

Boston, MA
September 2006

DEC 02, 2007 09:16 PM

Cheyenne said:
which is what i was trying to get people to realize.
And arguement for 21: there really is a difference in the mentality of a 21 year old and an 18 year old. That, I will give you. plus, if it is 18, then highschool students would be able to drink. Not a good idea.



The only difference between a 21 year old and an 18 year old that I can see is that a 21 year old is typically more comfortable in their new shoes. When you're 18 and you've just forged your identity, your shoes are new. It takes some walking to wear them in. But they're still essentially the same shoes.

And learning to drink responsibly is arugably a more difficult skill than learning to drive responsibly. I'd argue that if anything one should learn how to drink before learning how to drive. So you're at least more aware of how alcohol would affect you before you get behind the wheel. And remember, that if something's legal it's not as taboo. Most high schoolers drink anyways. But they tend to do it because it's a) dangerous, b) everyone else is doing it, c) their parents (in most cases) don't want them to. Didn't you want the toy your mom said you couldn't have more than any other toy?

I really believe that if the drinking age were lowered there'd be less desire to act out with alcohol. But this is admitadely getting a bit off topic tongue

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

DEC 03, 2007 02:46 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age

We're one of less than ten countries worldwide that won't let you buy alcohol until you're 21. Most seem to have settled on 18, with a substantial minority opting for somewhere in the 15-16 year old range or no restriction whatsoever. Also interesting - that particular restriction is only a little over two decades old. I suspect it can be comfortably blamed on moral crusaders rather than any real scientific difference between the two ages' capability to use alcohol responsibly.

skeeve

skeeve

Boston, MA
September 2006

DEC 03, 2007 02:48 AM

malkav11 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age

We're one of less than ten countries worldwide that won't let you buy alcohol until you're 21. Most seem to have settled on 18, with a substantial minority opting for somewhere in the 15-16 year old range or no restriction whatsoever. Also interesting - that particular restriction is only a little over two decades old. I suspect it can be comfortably blamed on moral crusaders rather than any real scientific difference between the two ages' capability to use alcohol responsibly.



Another excellent point. Thank you.

edith

edith

France
April 2006

DEC 03, 2007 03:12 AM

agreed. teenagers drink and have sex. in countries where this is accepted the teenagers do both with much more control, self respect and responsibility.

grazing_cattle

grazing_cattle

Richmond, MI
August 2007

DEC 03, 2007 03:30 AM

gutterman said:
Let's bring back Tossed Salad Man.

"Sorry, little Timmy. You carjacked someone's grandmother. You have to toss the salad." puke



+1
We don't need strict sentencing for kids we need the the Toss Salad Man!

pastthetaste

pastthetaste

I'm lost
February 2004

DEC 03, 2007 06:36 AM

skeeve said:

DamnedSid said:

pastthetaste said:
it should be like if you fuck up, you die..theres enough assholes in the world. im one, but i've never been put on trial for it. and if a jury of peers believes you to be such an asshole we should waste money keeping you alive, then i say fuck that...i'll buy the bullets! if you're gonna be dumb you gotta be tuff.

/flex



If anyone wonders why America imprisons a higher percentage of our population than any other developed country, you just have to read your comments. This knee-jerk reaction is exactly why we are where we are.




The only problem is it throws out all kinds of things that we pride ourselves on as humans. Love, compassion, and forgiveness for example. The unfortunate side of allowing emotions like that to be a part of our daily lives is that their polar opposites come into play as well. By necessity.



but didn't those people we're keeping alive already disregard those qualities?

pastthetaste

pastthetaste

I'm lost
February 2004

DEC 03, 2007 06:49 AM

magpieboy said:

pastthetaste said:
oh, and if your kid is a fuck up, that makes you one by default. you die too.



You should beat your child to make sure he understands his one bad move could put his dad in the slammer.

"He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases."



no, beating your kids is a fuck up move. only teaches kids to be fuck ups when they grow up (and in some cases even before). which means that kids grandparents are likely to be fuck ups as well. and we know what happens to fuck ups? thats right, they die.

oh, and by the way, im fixed. i don't want to worry about screwing up a kid.

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

DEC 03, 2007 07:42 AM

This thread is an idiot magnet.

"you fuck up, you die." Troll, dunce, or both?

sy_old

sy_old

Columbia, MO
March 2007

DEC 03, 2007 07:45 AM

People like to think that kids are innocent, naive. Anything they do wrong they didn't mean to do. I call bullshit. Kids know that killing is wrong, regardless of any other right/wrong confusion they may have. I think that focusing on fixing the larger issues at hand would be more productive than throwing these kids in prison, but what are you supposed to do with them in the meantime? I mean, seriously. What are you supposed to do with a 10 year old and 11 year old who just dumped some kid off a building? I'm open-minded here, let's hear a practical alternative solution.

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

DEC 03, 2007 07:47 AM

sy said:
I mean, seriously. What are you supposed to do with a 10 year old and 11 year old who just dumped some kid off a building? I'm open-minded here, let's hear a practical alternative solution.



Serious psychological counseling? Not hard to figure out. I mean, seriously.

sy_old

sy_old

Columbia, MO
March 2007

DEC 03, 2007 08:16 AM

PointBlank said:

sy said:
I mean, seriously. What are you supposed to do with a 10 year old and 11 year old who just dumped some kid off a building? I'm open-minded here, let's hear a practical alternative solution.



Serious psychological counseling? Not hard to figure out. I mean, seriously.



Well, obviously. Should they be confined while they're being counseled? Should they be free? My question shouldn't have been hard to figure out. Seriously.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

DEC 03, 2007 09:57 AM

Cheyenne said:

herbancowboy said:

Cheyenne said:
I just don't see how 18 is such a magic number


Try reading on for size:

They're responding to new research on the adolescent brain, and studies that indicate teens sent to adult court end up worse off than those who are not: They get in trouble more often, they do it faster and the offenses are more serious.



i do read...alot actually...funny, though...how apparently the brain is fully developed just overnight...from 17 to 18... Sorry..I don't buy it. At all. Your brain is around 95% fully developed at birth...and if it is murder we are talking about, then a 13 year old knows better. Period. A five year old knows better. Playing WWF and Oops someone gets hurt is one thing but going out and killing someone just for fun is another.


Wrong.

Research has shown that the brain continues to develop into the early twenties. (Kuhn, Swartzwelder, and Wilson, 1998; White, 2001; Giedd, et al, 1999; Giedd, 2004) The pre-frontal cortex, the part that controls reasoning and cognitive ability takes the longest to mature. This is why drinking, especially heavy drinking, before the brain finishes development affects memory and damages this pre-frontal cortex regions (Crews et al. 2000; Spear and Varlinskaya 2005; White and Swartzwelder 2005). Since this region is responsible for ability to learn complex tasks, control impulses and organizing, this is a significant loss. And, while the research on this is still in its early phases, there are some studies that indicate that this damage may be permanent. (Brown and Tapert, 2004)



Notice the bit about impulse control? If you bothered to retain the context of what you were reading, then you'd know the brain reaches 80% of it's adult size at age two. The brain pretty much has all it's neurons at birth but that is meaningless to the conversation at hand. The brain keeps producing glial cells which are central to the proper function of a brain. Moreover, the neurons that you insist are the only important factor continue to develop connections or neuro-pathways into your late teens. Consequently this is why it's easier to learn a second language when you're a kid versus an adult. Anyway, you don't know what you're talking about.

skeeve

skeeve

Boston, MA
September 2006

DEC 03, 2007 11:29 AM

pastthetaste said:

skeeve said:

DamnedSid said:

pastthetaste said:
it should be like if you fuck up, you die..theres enough assholes in the world. im one, but i've never been put on trial for it. and if a jury of peers believes you to be such an asshole we should waste money keeping you alive, then i say fuck that...i'll buy the bullets! if you're gonna be dumb you gotta be tuff.

/flex



If anyone wonders why America imprisons a higher percentage of our population than any other developed country, you just have to read your comments. This knee-jerk reaction is exactly why we are where we are.




The only problem is it throws out all kinds of things that we pride ourselves on as humans. Love, compassion, and forgiveness for example. The unfortunate side of allowing emotions like that to be a part of our daily lives is that their polar opposites come into play as well. By necessity.



but didn't those people we're keeping alive already disregard those qualities?



Sure they did. So we should disregard them in turn? I don't see your logic. The point of compassion is that you care for someone regardless of whether they show it in return. That's why we have charities. How should we be allowed to go on about how superior we are to the animals and then act as hypocritically as possible?

herbancowboy

herbancowboy

Houston, TX
June 2004

DEC 03, 2007 11:34 PM

Lil_Louie said:
Crimes deserve punishment


I agree. Too much "white collar" crime goes unpunished in this country. It sends the wrong message to the youth.

And I've been reading up on Iran/Contra lately--somebody ought to punish Colin Powell and Oliver North and Scooter Libby and all those other guys before they go and start thinking they're above the law.

Cheyenne said:
Your brain is around 95% fully developed at birth.


Ahem, WAS. I've done my level best to undo that since, and this thread has certainly helped. Thanks SQ!

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