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Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

NOV 19, 2007 07:20 PM

MrOuijaAK said:
We shouldn't be paying for unwanted children either. Charities, welfare, etc. etc. Most people in those situations choose to be in them.



Jaw, meet floor.


























Speechless. Utterly speechless.

MrStitches

MrStitches

Brooklyn, NY
November 2003

NOV 19, 2007 07:22 PM

MrOuijaAK said:

MrStitches said:

MrOuijaAK said:

FreakPirate said:

Cairo said:

Well, that didn't take long.



Well heck, let's just get this all over with shall we?

Birth control is a privilege, not a right!!


Condoms are cheap! Use them!


If you don't want to get knocked up you should be responsible enough not to be fucking!


I PAY FULL PRICE FOR MY BC, THE REST OF YOU SHOULD HAVE TO BECAUSE I SAID SO!!



Did I miss any of the stupid shit that's going to come up?



How is it stupid that I don't want to pay for other people's shit?



Because unwanted children a fuck ton more expensive than birth control subsidies? That being the most obvious answer that even a sign language gorilla could figure out.



We shouldn't be paying for unwanted children either. Charities, welfare, etc. etc. Most people in those situations choose to be in them. Barring extenuating circumstances, the government should not be bailing them out. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.



You're kind of an idiot aren't you?

MrOuijaAK

MrOuijaAK

Anchorage, AK
September 2005

NOV 19, 2007 07:22 PM

Formus said:

MrOuijaAK said:
Government subsidization only helps to elevate the already high prices for everyone.



Yes, because cutting prices makes them go up, duh. I guess this is what happens when you take Freakanomics seriously.

Unless you mean the extra, like five cents you'd pay on your tax bill. In which case, POOR YOU. frown



*sigh*

Company A sells product for 10 dollars.
Some people can afford 10 dollars, a large amount of people can't.
They can't make money on their product, because not enough people can afford it.
They change the price point to 8 dollars. They're still making profits, due to increased sales.

OR

Government decides to subsidize the cost for those who can't afford 10 dollars.
Company raises price to 12 dollars, because even if the 10 dollar people can't afford it anymore... the government is subsidizing the cost difference on the large population of people who cannot afford it.

As for your "5 cent" comment. You can marginalize every government program in that way. "It's just 5 cents to you, why do you care?" Allow enough nickels to be wasted, and eventually you'll be losing dollars.

mamet

mamet

Charleston, SC
March 2005

NOV 19, 2007 07:24 PM

MrOuijaAK said:

MrStitches said:

MrOuijaAK said:

FreakPirate said:

Cairo said:

Well, that didn't take long.



Well heck, let's just get this all over with shall we?

Birth control is a privilege, not a right!!


Condoms are cheap! Use them!


If you don't want to get knocked up you should be responsible enough not to be fucking!


I PAY FULL PRICE FOR MY BC, THE REST OF YOU SHOULD HAVE TO BECAUSE I SAID SO!!



Did I miss any of the stupid shit that's going to come up?



How is it stupid that I don't want to pay for other people's shit?



Because unwanted children a fuck ton more expensive than birth control subsidies? That being the most obvious answer that even a sign language gorilla could figure out.



We shouldn't be paying for unwanted children either. Charities, welfare, etc. etc. Most people in those situations choose to be in them. Barring extenuating circumstances, the government should not be bailing them out. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.



Do tell: what's it like to have no idea what you're talking about?

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

NOV 19, 2007 07:25 PM

MrOuijaAK said:
Company A sells product for 10 dollars.
Some people can afford 10 dollars, a large amount of people can't.
They can't make money on their product, because not enough people can afford it.
They change the price point to 8 dollars. They're still making profits, due to increased sales.



In Reagan Fantasy Land maybe. But not in real life. Which, in case you didn't notice, exists.

MrOuijaAK

MrOuijaAK

Anchorage, AK
September 2005

NOV 19, 2007 07:27 PM

Nixon said:

MrOuijaAK said:


How is it stupid that I don't want to pay for other people's shit?



A) You are not alone. You are part of a community. Get used to it.

B) would you prefer to help subsidize birth control for college students,obviously women trying to be a boon to society, or have those same women get pregnant and drop out, lowering their lifetime incomes permanently and raising the likelyhood that they end up on welfare, now with kids that need food, housing, an education and healthcare.

You're obviously a cheap bastard. Pick the cheaper option.



A) And I want my community to be improved, by having members who pull their own weight.

B) No. I'd prefer that people were forced to be more responsible about their choices, instead of depending on the government to bail them out. I'd also like forced paternity tests for men, and more laws to take the burden of unwanted pregnancies solely off the heads of mothers.

My mother raised me on her own from birth, she doesn't come from a family with money, and she never had to go on welfare. She took responsibility for her actions, despite my father not, and didn't need a free ride on the taxpayers dollar.

MrOuijaAK

MrOuijaAK

Anchorage, AK
September 2005

NOV 19, 2007 07:29 PM

Cairo said:

MrOuijaAK said:
How is it stupid that I don't want to pay for other people's shit?



Bitch_PhD said:
This legislation will not cost the taxpayers a single dime



Reading comprehension is your friend.



I read it, I just forgot to address it.

First off, NOTHING is free. Someone pays for it somewhere somehow. That statement can be a spin of, "Taxes won't be raised for this, funds will just be re-appropriated from something else."

Secondly, it's already costing money. Do you think legislators work for free? They're time spent reviewing the bill costs money before the bill even passes.

BlackBettiePaige

BlackBettiePaige

Hillside, NJ
January 2006

NOV 19, 2007 07:31 PM

Hmmmm last time I checked birth control is not 10 dollars!!! BC is expensive and depending on what form that you use, can cost up 300 without insurance. Wow, people need really inform themselves before they post nonsense. I wish i could get bc for 10, and many insurance companies no longer cover BC, so how does that work? Mind you have to refill BC every month or every few months. Oh and Legislators make money, Ive never seen one in the checkout counter at my local supermarket or driving themselves to thier local store. So, they are making money doing what now....oh yeah fucking us over.

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

NOV 19, 2007 07:31 PM

MrOuijaAK said:
A) And I want my community to be improved, by having members who pull their own weight.


Because the poor don't like, work three jobs just to feed their kids or anything. I have no idea whose propaganda you swallowed to feed these shallow, ill-informed ideas, but please PLEASE stop paying attention to them.

I'd prefer that people were forced to be more responsible about their choices, instead of depending on the government to bail them out.


You honestly believe that poverty is a fuckng CHOICE? You're out of your god damn mind.

My mother raised me on her own from birth, she doesn't come from a family with money, and she never had to go on welfare. She took responsibility for her actions, despite my father not, and didn't need a free ride on the taxpayers dollar.


Eureka.

MrOuijaAK

MrOuijaAK

Anchorage, AK
September 2005

NOV 19, 2007 07:35 PM

BlackBettiePaige said:
Hmmmm last time I checked birth control is not 10 dollars!!! BC is expensive and depending on what form that you use, can cost up 300 without insurance. Wow, people need really inform themselves before they post nonsense. I wish i could get bc for 10, and many insurance companies no longer cover BC, so how does that work?



I was using hypothetical products and companies. The actual price was unimportant. You can replace it with X Dollars and X-20% and X+20%.

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

NOV 19, 2007 07:36 PM

MrOuijaAK said:
The actual price was unimportant.


In this belief lies the fundamental problem of your entire fourth grade argument.

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

NOV 19, 2007 07:42 PM

Yeah... No one ever makes mistakes, gets a raw deal or is raised at a complete disadvantage. Society is perfect and when bad things happen it's the person's own fucking fault. No one ever needs help with anything.

How the fuck does your country function? I know not everyone down there is a selfish prick. Do they just come out when threads like this come up?

MrOuijaAK

MrOuijaAK

Anchorage, AK
September 2005

NOV 19, 2007 07:43 PM

Formus said:

MrOuijaAK said:
A) And I want my community to be improved, by having members who pull their own weight.


Because the poor don't like, work three jobs just to feed their kids or anything. I have no idea whose propaganda you swallowed to feed these shallow, ill-informed ideas, but please PLEASE stop paying attention to them.

I'd prefer that people were forced to be more responsible about their choices, instead of depending on the government to bail them out.


You honestly believe that poverty is a fuckng CHOICE? You're out of your god damn mind.

My mother raised me on her own from birth, she doesn't come from a family with money, and she never had to go on welfare. She took responsibility for her actions, despite my father not, and didn't need a free ride on the taxpayers dollar.


Eureka.



Working 3 jobs and still poor? How many kids does this imaginary person have, that they're still able to collect benefits while working 3 jobs?

And yes, I believe being poor is a choice. The homeless guy you give money to, who buys beer with it; he chooses to be homeless. Anyone can get a job at McDonald's and a second job at Wal-Mart, they'll hire pretty much anyone. Two crap jobs are enough to support oneself. You won't have the most glamorous lifestyle, but you won't need handouts to survive.

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

NOV 19, 2007 07:45 PM

I hope no one you ever know or care about finds themselves in desperate circumstances. Because they will kick your ass when they hear you spout this drivel.

MrOuijaAK

MrOuijaAK

Anchorage, AK
September 2005

NOV 19, 2007 07:51 PM

FreakPirate said:
Yeah... No one ever makes mistakes, gets a raw deal or is raised at a complete disadvantage. Society is perfect and when bad things happen it's the person's own fucking fault. No one ever needs help with anything.

How the fuck does your country function? I know not everyone down there is a selfish prick. Do they just come out when threads like this come up?



Mistakes? Deal with the consequences. People will never learn if they constantly get bailed out.

Raised at a disadvantage? Yes, having a privileged upbringing makes things easier. But being born with a rusty spoon in your mouth doesn't bar you from being successful. And getting free shit from the government isn't going to drive you to strive for more and improve your standing in life.

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

NOV 19, 2007 07:52 PM

MrOuijaAK said:
Working 3 jobs and still poor? How many kids does this imaginary person have, that they're still able to collect benefits while working 3 jobs?


You have got to be fucking KIDDING ME. Two kids. Two fucking kids. Two kids who need health care, clothing, food, and shelter. Two kids that a divorced single woman in an inner city can't afford on the wages she earns from the jobs that are available in her area.

Have you ever been out of Alaska?

And yes, I believe being poor is a choice. The homeless guy you give money to, who buys beer with it; he chooses to be homeless.


Unless he's mentally ill. Which, you know, a lot of homeless people are. Wait, nevermind, you probably didn't know that.

Anyone can get a job at McDonald's and a second job at Wal-Mart, they'll hire pretty much anyone. Two crap jobs are enough to support oneself.


What fucking reality do you live in? A reality where you have to work less than eight hours a day at McDonald's to be able to feed yourself, let alone your children? A reality where Wal-Mart doesn't discriminate based on sex? A reality where any low-wage employer even considers health care for their employees?

You are ignorant as to the experience of the impoverished American. You live in Alaska, the whitest state in the Union, as well as the state with the sixth-highest median income. You've probably never even met a poor person to be so goddamn ignorant as to their situations and the complexity of the issue of poverty. You spout off generic, selfish economic rhetoric without any understanding whatsoever of economics that you didn't learn from a fucking Ronald Reagan speech.

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

NOV 19, 2007 07:54 PM

MrOuijaAK said:

Mistakes? Deal with the consequences. People will never learn if they constantly get bailed out.

Raised at a disadvantage? Yes, having a privileged upbringing makes things easier. But being born with a rusty spoon in your mouth doesn't bar you from being successful. And getting free shit from the government isn't going to drive you to strive for more and improve your standing in life.



You liked Catcher in the Rye didn't you...

MrOuijaAK

MrOuijaAK

Anchorage, AK
September 2005

NOV 19, 2007 08:11 PM

Formus said:

MrOuijaAK said:
Working 3 jobs and still poor? How many kids does this imaginary person have, that they're still able to collect benefits while working 3 jobs?


You have got to be fucking KIDDING ME. Two kids. Two fucking kids. Two kids who need health care, clothing, food, and shelter. Two kids that a divorced single woman in an inner city can't afford on the wages she earns from the jobs that are available in her area.

Have you ever been out of Alaska?

And yes, I believe being poor is a choice. The homeless guy you give money to, who buys beer with it; he chooses to be homeless.


Unless he's mentally ill. Which, you know, a lot of homeless people are. Wait, nevermind, you probably didn't know that.

Anyone can get a job at McDonald's and a second job at Wal-Mart, they'll hire pretty much anyone. Two crap jobs are enough to support oneself.


What fucking reality do you live in? A reality where you have to work less than eight hours a day at McDonald's to be able to feed yourself, let alone your children? A reality where Wal-Mart doesn't discriminate based on sex? A reality where any low-wage employer even considers health care for their employees?

You are ignorant as to the experience of the impoverished American. You live in Alaska, the whitest state in the Union, as well as the state with the sixth-highest median income. You've probably never even met a poor person to be so goddamn ignorant as to their situations and the complexity of the issue of poverty. You spout off generic, selfish economic rhetoric without any understanding whatsoever of economics that you didn't learn from a fucking Ronald Reagan speech.



Actually I was born in a pretty crappy neighborhood in Phoenix. You've probably seen my grandmother's house on Cops a few times.

As for Alaska. My mother and step-father both work for a non-profit company and together make less than I make now in my 20s. When it was just my mother and I, we lived in one of the worst neighborhoods in town. Most of the kids in school took the free lunches. Most of them were on welfare. They also had more toys than me, but hey my Mom couldn't afford them.

I have employees which have no diploma, they get health insurance after 6 months, and they make several dollars an hour over minimum wage. Basically if they haven't killed anyone and can pass a drug test, they get hired. And I work for one of the largest companies in the US. Yet you're telling me people can't find jobs which pay enough to raise their families, even if they're working multiple jobs? I'll remember that the next time I see someone talking on their cellphone while using their Food Stamp card in line at the grocery store.

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

NOV 19, 2007 08:19 PM

MrOuijaAK said:
I have employees which have no diploma, they get health insurance after 6 months, and they make several dollars an hour over minimum wage.


That's great. Unfortunately, none of the corporations who employ the most impoverished Americans think the same way you do, and they see absolutely no reason why they should. Sorry.

Basically if they haven't killed anyone and can pass a drug test, they get hired. And I work for one of the largest companies in the US. Yet you're telling me people can't find jobs which pay enough to raise their families, even if they're working multiple jobs?


Yes, I fucking am. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, a city with one of the largest, poorest inner cities in the entire country, and have come into contact with these situations on a regular basis throughout my life. And our Welfare laws were overhauled recently, making welfare essentially only available to people with at least one job. And they still need more jobs to be able to afford essential goods and services, like Fucking Heat and Fucking Food and Fucking Health Care, all of which are Fucking Expensive. Go watch Bowling For Columbine.

I'll remember that the next time I see someone talking on their cellphone while using their Food Stamp card in line at the grocery store.


Because the actions of one person totally represent the mentality of millions of others. Way to use logic there.

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

NOV 19, 2007 08:21 PM

Tell me something, and don't lie to me... People would elect this asshole wouldn't they?

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

NOV 19, 2007 08:22 PM

FreakPirate said:
Tell me something, and don't lie to me... People would elect this asshole wouldn't they?



Ron Paul 2008!

MrOuijaAK

MrOuijaAK

Anchorage, AK
September 2005

NOV 19, 2007 08:33 PM


I have employees which have no diploma, they get health insurance after 6 months, and they make several dollars an hour over minimum wage.


That's great. Unfortunately, none of the corporations who employ the most impoverished Americans think the same way you do, and they see absolutely no reason why they should. Sorry.



I think you missed my point. The company I work for DOES employ impoverished Americans. And if they actually work hard and stick around, they can make more money. I have some employees that make $19/hour + full benefits, despite no high school diploma.

Basically if they haven't killed anyone and can pass a drug test, they get hired. And I work for one of the largest companies in the US. Yet you're telling me people can't find jobs which pay enough to raise their families, even if they're working multiple jobs?



Yes, I fucking am. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, a city with one of the largest, poorest inner cities in the entire country, and have come into contact with these situations on a regular basis throughout my life. And our Welfare laws were overhauled recently, making welfare essentially only available to people with at least one job. And they still need more jobs to be able to afford essential goods and services, like fucking heat and fucking food and fucking health care. Go watch Bowling For Columbine.



Why is welfare not being available to the unemployed bad? IF anything, that's a good middle ground. "Well at least you're TRYING to support yourself, here's a helping hand."

The only exceptions to the rule, should be the disabled and (I think you mentioned before) the mentally ill. Situations that are not by choice. But there are programs designed for those situations, that make more sense.

I'll remember that the next time I see someone talking on their cellphone while using their Food Stamp card in line at the grocery store.


Because the actions of one person totally represent the mentality of millions of others. Way to use logic there.



If only it were just one person.

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

NOV 19, 2007 08:38 PM

MrOuijaAK said:
I think you missed my point. The company I work for DOES employ impoverished Americans. And if they actually work hard and stick around, they can make more money. I have some employees that make $19/hour + full benefits, despite no high school diploma.


Again, so what? That's one company. There are thousands more than pay nine dollars an hour with no benefits whatsoever. Please tell me what you've proven.

Why is welfare not being available to the unemployed bad? IF anything, that's a good middle ground. "Well at least you're TRYING to support yourself, here's a helping hand."


Except that the welfare amount doled out is so low that they still have to search out extra income to support their families. And the system is a gigantic beaurocracy fraught to the teeth with fraud and mismanagement.

Because the actions of one person totally represent the mentality of millions of others. Way to use logic there.



If only it were just one person.


Okay then, five. Get off your horse. What you've spouted off on this board are a bunch of cliches, nothing more and nothing less. The issue is far more complex than any of what you've said would lead me to believe you acknowledge. I can attest to the fact that the vast, vast majority of people in poverty that I've met or encountered don't act in any way like the stereotypes you've named on this board.

MrOuijaAK

MrOuijaAK

Anchorage, AK
September 2005

NOV 19, 2007 08:42 PM

Formus said:

FreakPirate said:
Tell me something, and don't lie to me... People would elect this asshole wouldn't they?



Ron Paul 2008!



You know having a "conservative" view on welfare, doesn't automatically make someone a Republican. Pigeonholing people into a specific political stereotype based on an opinion on one topic is silly.

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

NOV 19, 2007 08:44 PM

MrOuijaAK said:

Formus said:

FreakPirate said:
Tell me something, and don't lie to me... People would elect this asshole wouldn't they?



Ron Paul 2008!



You know having a "conservative" view on welfare, doesn't automatically make someone a Republican. Pigeonholing people into a specific political stereotype based on an opinion on one topic is silly.



But it's such an exaggerated, stereotypical opinion. You can't really blame me.

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