NEWS: To Prius or Not To Prius?

Not everyone can afford to live close to where they work, nor can they show up to work covered in sweat and grime.

Of course, I live in a city that has invested in a decent public transportation system, so I'm not really missing out on that whole "riding a bicycle in the sleet" experience I gave up when I quit being a bike messenger.

Gee, its amazing how blame transferal fits into any subject you could possibly mention. We always get what we want[i.e., big hog cars], then, yeah let's blame those corporate SOBs for building what we bought, don't they know we have no self control of our own?

Jesus your sounding like a right toyota fanboy, do you have any evidence of these euro manufacturers not being able to meet emissions and crash standards, Renault have some of the best safety test results of any manufacturer when tested by EuroNCAP
http://www.euroncap.com/tests.aspx

i want to know why diesels which are fantastically clean and efficient that are light, small and therefore more energy efficient to run and build, cars than perform well in crash tests and are generally a good thing aren't available in the US and California, i just want to know why, i'm trying not to flame here.

I commute by bike when I can, which is not often. I love my Prius. I get nearly 50 MPG. People tell me I drive a "shoe car". I laugh "with" them. I know I can do more, but at least I am not saying "you can do more" and drive a car that gets 19 MPG.

I'm not buying a prius or any other gas/electric hybrid cause they still use gas. just making a car a hybrid doesnt automatically make it healthy for the environment. Pay attention to what the actual gas milage is and if it still sucks, dont buy it. The prius gets 55mpg and gets all the glory, but ya know what? Its really a pretty ugly car. I'd much rather have a civic hybrid than a prius, and the civic still gets 51mpg, really pretty close and you hardly ever see a civic hybrid kickin around.

Really though I'm never going to buy another car that will require me to buy gasoline for. I made that promise a few years ago when I didnt even really see anything on the horizon, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Now we've got some diesel's coming out during '08 that we can run on biodiesel instead, and I'm hoping we can get a plug in hybrid before too much longer, or dare to dream for a pure electric. I'd rather keep my 01 civic and have a 2nd pure electric than a plug in hybrid since I kinda object to making my electric car haul around 600lbs of dead weight in an internal combustion engine and gas tank.

We shall see what the car gods create for us in the mean time though..... if worse comes to worse I can always sell my house and buy a Tesla Roadster though. That'd be a cramped car to live in, but it might be worth it..... if only I cold find a place to plug it in at

PS everyone pray for $5 a gallon gas. That'll light a fire under america's ass to get off gasoline

That study makes a number of absurd assumptions, the biggest of which is that a Prius will only last 100,000 miles while a Hummer will last 300,000 - thereby skewing the numbers by 300% in favor of the Hummer.

Ridiculous.

Both vehicles are likely to last about the same number of miles on average - about 160,000. Both vehicles can last to ~225,000 miles if properly maintained but relatively few cars/trucks on average will ever reach that mark before being totalled in an accident or needing more repairs than the vehicle is worth.

The tesla roadster is a nice idea, if....you have a 60amp power supply and three hours to charge it, or a 115v and 10-12 hours to charge it, and oh you'll have to buy a heater for the garage as it won't charge in the cold. The problems of technology still in its infancy.

If the manufacturer doesn't build them for this market, altering them for our myriad of safety and emissions equipment standards and successfully get US DOT and EPA certification, they won't pass. Period. That's how it works.

We use:
different test standards, procedures, and protocols,
require different labellings,
diagnostic hardware and software
and have different standards on everything from:
bumper height,
headlight placement,
light pattern throw,
emissions equipment durability,
cold and hot start standards,
OBDII diag port location and configuration,
standardized engine control trouble codes,
corner lamp placement and performance,
brake light configuration,
airbag placement size and performance,
tire DOT grading, numbering and labelling
crash test type, speed and measuring standards

...and about 800 other things as well.

That's why, among other reasons. Also, as I said earlier, Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, Fiat, Alfa Romeo and other manufacturers fled the US market in failure many years ago when they couldn't or wouldn't build compliant cars and haven't come back since. Congress can't change that and neither will a petition, and the rules have gotten much, much harder since then.

Toyota's first effort here was awful (google Toyopet Crown if you dare) and Hondas were crappy too (the N600 was a joke and the first year -1976- Accord rusted so fast you could practically watch it disintegrate), yet both companies stuck with it and now lead the field.

FTR, the Prius bores me to death, as do most other Toyotas. Doesn't mean it's not a major engineering triumph nor a good, reliable car for a non-enthusiast.

seems to me if they wanted to implement this 35mpg law or generally do good for the environment they should take a look at the cars on offer over here and then take a look at the legislation, Getting cars homologated for the U.S is a nightmare from what i understand, seems to me that your just cutting off your nose to spite your face if your gonna force cars that you are telling manufacturers to build bend over backwards to get sold. is there prehaps something more deep rooted like a favour for American owned car companies or Japanese manufacturers with american connections (like mazda) over companies like the FIAT group or the PSA Peugeot Citroen group?

i'm not convinced at all that hybrids are the future. Set the manufacturers a task and let them see what they can produce, instead of seeing Hybrids as the solution. VW already made a lupo that could do a 100km on 3 litres of diesel (about 74 mpg) but nobody bought it 5 years ago, but in today's climate probably would. Koenigsegg are developing a camless engine which would greatly reduce engine weight and internal friction losses. Ferrari are working on shortening and lightening their cars buy using carbon fibre for impact zones, smaller lighter ceramic brakes, smaller wheels, and a lighter tub. Tyre manufacturers are trying to reduce rolling friction. All of these innovations would do more for the energy efficiency of cars more so than using an electric motor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6Vw402IaII

We're one of the biggest and richest car markets in the world, so if a manufacturer wants to sell here they have to play ball. It's no different in Japan or Germany and any major car company could comply if they felt it was worth it. Lamborghini and Ferrari find a way, as do BMW and Porsche. Even tiny Koenigsegg manages.

Not at all. Mazda has been and is a bit player in the US compared with independents like Toyota and Honda.

Where did I ever say I thought hybrids were the future? They are a good stopgap solution for the infrastructure and driving expectations we have now at a price many can afford.

Affordability is key here, along with practicality. That's why the Prius has done so well and the Honda Insight and the earlier GM EV-1 have not.

All the technology you mention above is great and valuable and will probably help production vehicles in the future - but for now, few people want to drop the required $8,000 on a brake job for a set of carbon-carbon brakes. Few insurers want to pay $150,000 to replace a carbon tub that cannot be repaired by a common body shop, only replaced... and the hybrids are already using low rolling resistance tires, electric power steering and a myriad of other more affordable advanced technology in pursuit of better mileage. Ceramic-compound pads are already in wide use in the US for noise reduction.

Anyway, I have to drive back to NYC now. See you in a few hours!

Good point well made on the issue of practicality but for what the hybrid does do, a diesel car or a lighter petrol car can do just as well on issue of miles to the gallon. I'm going to quote an Article written by Gordon Murray (designer of the McLaren F1, LCC Rocket, and currently developing the type-25 city car for his own company, which is inspired by the Fiat 500) written for a piece in evo mag comparing the prius and the Fiat Panda 100HP and basically arguing the points of lightweight against hybrid

"The current hysteria surrounding the environment and our motor cars is focused on the damage done from driving - that is the fuel consumption issues and the CO2 emissions. The press and our legislators concentrate on these two figures as they are easy to measure and easy to understand, but unfortunately they are often inaccurate and can be very misleading. Fuel consumption on a rolling road gives false readings on rolling resistance and doesn't take aerodynamic drag into account. Just check how far away these 'official' combined fuel consumption figures are away from actual road test figures. On top of these inaccuracies we have to consider the hidden differences in energy consumption and CO2 damage. Depending on which formula is used, the actual figure may vary but what is true is that a car needs to be driven for many years before the CO2 damage from vehicle use equals the damage done by manufacturing and recycling the car. For example 26 tons of waste are produced extracting the raw materials for every car we manufacture, then 1.5 tons of solid waste and 74 million cubic litres of polluted air are produced in the build process. We also know that the energy required to produce a car is roughly proportional to the car's size and weight. Other factors such as a 'luxury' spec make a difference too but this is more difficult to calculate. Now, if we take the size of the Prius as a figure of 100, then the Fiat Panda is a 74 from a volume/surface area point of view, while the weight of the panda works out as a 72 against the 100 of the prius. Another consideration is that the extra weight in the hybrid stems in part from the fact that the car ha much more complicated 'heavy bits' - extra powertrain components in its two motor configuration, A complicated control system and a lot more of those enviro-nasties called batteries. I estimate this gives a further 'efficiency factor' difference in favour of the Panda to the order of 100 to 70. So on top of the actual fuel consumption and CO2 emissions the Prius relative to the Panda is probably at least 50% more damaging to the environment in the first few years of use when manufacturing and recycling damage is included. For a Prius, the CO2 produced in its manufacture is equivalent to about seven year's use on the road" - Gordon Murray

During the road test they drove the two cars through London and onto Wellingborough (502 miles) taking in a real world combined cycle of city, motorway, 'a' and 'b' road driving and for fuel consumption the figures were

London - Pickering (273 Miles)
Prius: 26.24 Litres, 47.23mpg
(on board computer 50.5mpg)
Panda: 29.11 Litres, 42.58mpg
(on board computer 42.6mpg)

Pickering - Wellingborough (229 Miles)
Prius: 22.25 Litres, 46.73mpg
(on board computer 49.4mpg)
Panda: 24.26 Litres, 42.87mpg
(on board computer 43.5mpg)

So with a litre costing 96p the prius saved £4.68 on the trip. however with the Prius costing £20,000 and the Panda costing £10,000 the Prius would have to cover a distance of 1,102,850 miles to break even.


A bit long winded i know but it seemed to make my point about small light cars being as effective as the Prius. the technology has a way to go, but at least its a step in the right direction, just have to convince some people its not the saviour.

You are comparing apples to elephants.

The Prius is a mid size family car like the Camry; the Panda is a subcompact city car.

The closest car sold here by size and power to the Panda (and I'm being really generous here, as the upper-line Panda 100 has less power than the base Aveo) is the Chevy Aveo, which moved a comparatively poor 6,246 units in August of 2007 -and that was 2006's #1 selling car in its' class here.

The Prius sold 14,055 units in the same month, in spite of costing $23,000 compared to the $13,000 Aveo.
People buying the Prius here aren't cross-shopping Aveos and Smart cars, they're cross-shopping Camrys, Accords and minivans.


BTW, you guys are getting killed over there if you're paying 20,000 pounds for a Prius. The Aveo runs 6,308 GBP here and the Prius 11,162 GBP.

Well, as long as you're pulling out gems like "OBDII diag systems," I feel I must point out the many things in your post that are either incorrect or don't respond to what I actually said. (Your rudeness I can do nothing about).

1. "Peugot hasn't sold a single car here in several decades, for starters."

I notice you didn't mention that Cooper Mini's, Volkswagens, Audis and Saabs all do rather well in this country. In Europe you can get diesel versions of all of these that get phenomenal mileage.

2. "Newsflash: automakers that don't sell any cars here don't build cars to meet our standards."

Newsflash: See above. Last time I checked, European automakers that DO sell cars here are quite interested in selling MORE cars to the American market, the largest car market in the world. Especially when Americans find out they can buy an Audi that gets 83 MPG.

3. "California alone has the power to write their own different, more stringent emissions standards than the Feds because they had emissions standards before the Feds did. ... Congress has fuck-all to do with that. "

Yes, I understand that. When I said "maybe you should write your Congressman about that" I was using a bit of irony, since writing your Congressman has become the ultimate metaphor for making a symbolic, meaningless gesture. But my overall point is that we as U.S. citizens should inquire into the reasons why super high-efficiency, clean diesel cars aren't widely available here, and try to change that.

4. " there is a real question that the latest CA standards will obsolete the newest diesel engines from Mercedes and VW when they go into effect."

The last I heard, and I check the VW web site regularly because I want to buy a biodiesel-combatible Rabbit when it comes out (50 MPG), California's new emissions laws won't be a problem. It's an issue still being worked out, but it doesn't mean a person is "fucking dense" (if I may quote you) when they talk about it.

5. "you compare VOCs from Biodiesel to Gasoline. Irrelevant. Biodiesel is not a gasoline substitute, bio is a petrodiesel substitute"

Aside from pointing out the obvious (that biodiesel is a form of diesel fuel) you're missing the point: diesel engines are much more efficient than gasoline engines. Moreover, now that they burn just as cleanly as gasoline engines, there's no environmental reason to reject them. (Except of course, it's better to ride a bike or take the bus, as others have noted).

6. "petrodiesel has negligible VOCs compared to gasoline too."

That's completely wrong. Traditional diesel engines (not including the original Diesel engines, which ran on peanut oil) have MUCH higher emissions of sulfur dioxide and other VOCs. For a second there, when you were throwing around phrases like "OBDII diag systems," I was lulled into thinking maybe you knew what you were talking about. But you clearly don't.

7. "Please stop talking out of your ass when you know just enough of the subject to be dangerous."

So you know a few things about cars, and you can throw around some jargon. And you're rude. All those things are clear. But what you're really doing is setting up strawman arguments (Peugot? Renault? Different headlight standards?) to obfuscate an important issue here. I'm afraid I'll have to miss your subsequent angry, misinformed reply because I've already wasted enough time trying to deconstruct your B.S.

i recently totalled my mom's tundra. it was investigated and turns out there was a recall(sent us nothing about it) on the ball joint or something and that's what broke... and why i almost fucking died.

ahh that sucked.

so fuck you toyota. you're an asshole.

p.s. i flipped likethreetimesss

We get shafted on all car prices the all conquering pound has little effect on car prices, Toyota own website says prices range from £17,777 to £20,677
http://www.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/frame_start.jsp?id=MSR_PRIUS


I'm not sure why the difference in class of car is important what the article pointed out to me was that the need for a hybrid can be negated by driving a smaller lighter car, the fact that the selling figures for city cars were so poor in the us says something wider about car culture in the us, the long time desire for big engines big power and big cars would suggest that small cars are wrote off a joke even by pointing out that the base like aveo has more power than the panda, the questions is why? why do you need more power for a small car, isn't that just wasting fuel putting a more powerful engine in, yet if you were truly serious about the environment then you should be looking at this type of car and asking questions about why you can't have them.

Practically every diesel in the prius' class and several in the saloon and executive classes will equal it if not out distance it in terms of mpg, and i mean real world mpg not toyotas fake figures. And if you don't want diesel start making smaller petrol cars, or making them lighter, or even use better fuel than 93 RON, 95 is standard over here, 97 available widely with 99 and 102 ron available is some places, get more horsepower out of your engines instead of making bigger ones. top using automatics and save weight by using a manual system. There is a load of stuff that the American car industry could do to increase their mpg and decrease their CO2 emissions other than buying the hybrid.

i scanned the evo article and uploaded it if you want to read it.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=A286CQWB

Oh for fuck's sake. You have disproven exactly nothing I've said, and for your information VOC is a generic measure of static evaporative component content - "Volatile Organic Content", not a measurement unit of unburned fuel tailpipe emissions. That would be Hydrocarbon, or HC.

I'm glad you think California's stricter emissions laws "won't be a problem", bu the engineers at the car companies rather disagree with you. Mercedes has a shot at it with the Bluetec, but the EPA prefers systems that don't require periodic refilling of tanks - they like systems that require no routine maintenance or owner involvement whatsoever.

My points stand, and you still have no idea what you're talking about.

...and yes, I do know "a few things about cars".

Umm... Another pretty big thing to consider is this.

Would you rather be T-boned by a big, American SUV in a Prius... or a Panda? Plus, cute little city cars don't fare so well on our land-destroying interstates.

Whatever, moot point for me. Fuel efficiency is the last thing on my mind when thinking about a car (though my sporty little 924S gets better gas mileage than most other cars on the road anyway--win win situation).

PS - Never get into a car argument with Stiles.

PPS - Scratch that, argue cars with Stiles. It'll be hilarious.

Have you ever driven any distance in this country?

US octane is measured differently than UK octane. You guys use the straight RON (research octane number) figure, which is higher. We use an average of RON and MON (Motor Octane Number), which is considerably lower for identical fuels. Our pump octane ratings (RON + MON/2 ) of 87/89/91/93 are roughly similar to your RON-only 93/95/97/99.

Manual transmissions account for few sales here for two reasons: most drivers here can't drive stick and we have some hideous traffic jams. Try commuting in L.A. for a few months and you'll see what I mean.

Also, automatics don't carry the mileage penalty they did only ten years ago. Many are rated quite close to their stick shift brethren's mileage figures.

I've owned and enjoyed many of the mileage champion cars of the 1980s and early 1990s, including a Chevy Sprint, a CRX HF and a Rabbit diesel. All got great mileage, none would pass *anything* going uphill with the A/C on, even with only one person in the car.

Cars cannot be made light like that anymore and still meet our safety and emissions standards while being affordable.

Thanks, I'll check it out tomorrow after work. We get that magazine at work, and I like it a lot.

Evo is the dog's bollocks when it comes to motoring magazines, i'm yet to see any other mag buy a Zonda or Carrera GT for a long term test
Am missing Gordon Murray's articles while he's off designing his Type - 25 they were always so well written.

i never got why nobody drives a manaual in the states, its hardly the most difficult of things to co-ordinate, clutch and change, it takes like half a second. i've been stuck on the M25 (London orbital....car park) through rush hour on a friday and i think that would stand up with the best of jams

i drive a lot through work and while im not out everyday i can clock up a 1000 a week if were busy and i drive a Ford Ka, it sits at 80 with no fuss and has all its power through the low revs which makes it great for darting around the city, or thrashing the nuts of it on a b road, low power low grip shopping trolley style fun. And this is my second Ka, the first one got side impacted by a peugeot 106, i was doing about 10, he was doing about 30. i walked away from mine, the four of them in his walked away, admittedly both cars were totalled but his looked worst.

oh and at least it wasn't an aveo (although its side impact is good) check out the frontal impact ratings.
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/chevrolet_aveo_2006/250.aspx