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Heigai

Heigai

Columbus, OH
May 2004

OCT 22, 2007 04:58 PM

Why do so many forget that "feminism," no matter how you subjectively choose to define it, is entrenched against centuries and centuries of anti-feminism?

The Church didn't spend generation after generation telling its flock that men were insane, horny, and evil. They spent that time telling their flock these things about women. It's in literature, it's in history, it underlies every "debate" that rises from a Bitch_PhD thread and it's very, very traditional.

It's also a bunch of horseshit that modern society swallowed as a meme, and continues to spoon-feed to its children.

BDeyeD

BDeyeD

Toronto, ON
January 2007

OCT 22, 2007 06:56 PM

Toku666 said:
Why do so many forget that "feminism," no matter how you subjectively choose to define it, is entrenched against centuries and centuries of anti-feminism?

The Church didn't spend generation after generation telling its flock that men were insane, horny, and evil. They spent that time telling their flock these things about women. It's in literature, it's in history, it underlies every "debate" that rises from a Bitch_PhD thread and it's very, very traditional.

It's also a bunch of horseshit that modern society swallowed as a meme, and continues to spoon-feed to its children.



I like you. You get to sit beisde me at the lunch table. smile

SuntLacrimae

SuntLacrimae

Eugene, OR
October 2005

OCT 22, 2007 11:42 PM

Formus said:

idrawrobots said:
Feminism... I guess I see it as an advocating of women's rights and equality.



And if a man advocates women's right and equality, what does that make him?



Decent?

SuntLacrimae

SuntLacrimae

Eugene, OR
October 2005

OCT 22, 2007 11:44 PM

indiecred17 said:
Although i would never associate with a 'feminist' (the same as i wouldn't associate with a vegan) because id rather shoot my left nut off, i do think that women who respect themselves lead healthier relationships (with or without the dip shit tag of feminism). People who respect people have better relationships, its not news and the credit sure as fuck shouldn't be given solely to feminism.



Hi. I'm a feminist. I'm going to follow you around, talk to you ALL THE TIME, and make sure everyone knows we're the BESTEST of friends. That is, of course, unless there's something you'd rather do instead . . . . . *holds out a handgun*


bok

IronOrchid

ironorchid

Australia
February 2007

OCT 22, 2007 11:50 PM

NoPantsDave said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

IronOrchid said:
Btw, egalitarian isn't an feasible alternative to feminism because it doesn't stress that the the equality sought is gender equality. And yes, there are reasons to pursue equal rights for women, and to analyse social and political power differences which are based on gender inequality, rather than other forms of inequality (class, race, etc.).



Is gender equality that much more important than any other type of equality? Seems to me that egalitarian is a better term because it promotes equal rights for everyone regardless of what kinds of rights they are.



It's not better or worse. It's just particular focus. Not everyone can work towards ALL forms of equal rights at once. But while to declare oneself feminist is to declare a particular interest in the rights of women, it doesn't necessarily follow that this would be at the expense of other groups.

IronOrchid

ironorchid

Australia
February 2007

OCT 22, 2007 11:57 PM

SPOILERS! (Click to view)


ortho7117 said:

IronOrchid said:

ortho7117 said:

IronOrchid said:
Nice article.

Pity about all those people who commented as soon as they read th word "feminism", rather than reading the content.



The whole problem with the word 'feminism' is that it elicits such reactions. It's a so-called loaded word. Something like 'egalitarian attitude' (to quote the article) might be a better way to make the point, because 'feminism' has negative connotations.

It's sort of like 'atheist' versus 'non-theist.' They both mean the same thing by strict definition, but 'atheist' conjures up ideas of angry god-haters. It's become so confused in so many people's minds, that it's best to use 'non-theist' instead.



Neither of those terms conjures up anything like your descriptions to me. Feminism conjures up a movement concerned with equal rights for women, and a tool for analysing gender roles, while atheist simply means a non-believer. I have never heard a distinction between atheist and non-theist. In fact, I've never heard the term "non-theist" until a minute ago.
(Which is kinda weird, seeing as I study and teach philosophy, and you'd think it might come up from time to time.)

The only people I know who would use feminist and atheist in those ways would be people who are trying belittle or repudiate feminists and atheists.



But those terms do in fact have negative connotations for many people. Perhaps not for you, considering your field of expertise, but for many others. I believe you acknowledged this with your first comment. Many people *do* get turned off when they read the word 'feminism' because it has negative connotations. And atheism is often assumed to mean strong atheism or anti-theism, at least in the US.

Have you really never heard of the term 'non-theist'? Here's a bit from the Wikipedia entry:

First recorded usage of Non-theism is by G. J. Holyoake in 1852[1], who introduces it because

"Mr. [Charles] Southwell has taken an objection to the term Atheism. We are glad he has. We have disused it a long time [...]. We disuse it, because Atheist is a worn-out word. Both the ancients and the moderns have understood by it one without God, and also without morality. Thus the term connotes more than any well-informed and earnest person accepting it ever included in it; that is, the word carries with it associations of immorality, which have been repudiated by the Atheist as seriously as by the Christian. Non-theism is a term less open to the same misunderstanding, as it implies the simple non-acceptance of the Theist's explanation of the origin and government of the world."





I think that the atheist issue matters more in some cultures than others. Coming from a secular country, it hasn't come up that often for me.


IronOrchid said:

Btw, egalitarian isn't an feasible alternative to feminism because it doesn't stress that the the equality sought is gender equality. And yes, there are reasons to pursue equal rights for women, and to analyse social and political power differences which are based on gender inequality, rather than other forms of inequality (class, race, etc.).



ortho7117 said:
How about 'egalitarian gender views' or something similar? There are many possibilities like this.

(Edited to separate quotes.)



Re: egalitarian, you could say that a marxist is, by definition, an egalitarian, but that doesn't mean that identifying the particular form of inequality that marxists hope to over come (i.e. inequality of the classes) isn't useful. It helps to be clear on specifics, both in discourse, or for individuals trying to figure out what is important to them. One can be an egalitarian and a feminist, but one can also be a feminist without being an egalitarian, and vice versa. Thus there's nothing to be gained by conflating the terms.
[SPOILER]
Life would be easier if I could draw Venn diagrams in comments.



Actually, for all you people who say you are for equal rights for women because you are egalitarian, most of you would probably agree with the position known as Liberal Feminism. That is, if crazy people hadn't scared you off feminism already.

lefthandright

lefthandright

New Zealand
September 2006

OCT 23, 2007 12:38 AM

where do you get these studies from? they never define what is healthy or better relationship?..they never define what the word feminism means to the candidate in the study, nor to their partner. They are never repeated, they don't have a control group, they don't state how long the relationship has gone for, whether they are married, or whether the questions were asked in private or in front of said persons partner. As much as this study has a positive result, which most positive people would like to hear, it has no credibility or in anyway demonstrates how it was conducted. Be careful not to believe all you read on a internet forum study. I once read on a internet forum study that there is more women having babies to alien fathers than the world actually even knows about...

syndeusys

syndeusys

I'm lost
September 2005

OCT 23, 2007 09:23 AM


where do you get these studies from? they never define what is healthy or better relationship?..they never define what the word feminism means to the candidate in the study, nor to their partner. They are never repeated, they don't have a control group, they don't state how long the relationship has gone for, whether they are married, or whether the questions were asked in private or in front of said persons partner. As much as this study has a positive result, which most positive people would like to hear, it has no credibility or in anyway demonstrates how it was conducted.



+1 Although it is still self-evident that people who respect each other get more out of any relationship or interaction regardless of who is involved.

jatibb

jatibb

I'm lost
February 2007

OCT 23, 2007 03:45 PM

theres an ass for every seat puke

Suitsme

Suitsme

Regina, SK
October 2005

OCT 23, 2007 06:23 PM

Cerwen said:



Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think it goes without saying that a woman who respects herself respects her partner, so long as said partner is worth respecting. .



That's kinda like saying any guy that respects himself respects HIS partner... not always true..no matter who is in the relationship.

(I may be a day late with this comment, but I felt it had to be said)

unfiltrator

unfiltrator

San Francisco, CA
April 2004

OCT 24, 2007 05:41 PM

Domo_Kun said:
I dated a self-identifying feminist for a while. It was fun. I agreed with her on pretty much all of her feminist opinions. I just added this caveat: If women would like to be treated equally and respected equally, then that means respecting men equally (why is misandric humour considered acceptable while misogynistic humour is considered reprehensible?) and taking on the same social responsibilities (Selective Service, anyone?).

IronOrchid said:
Btw, egalitarian isn't an feasible alternative to feminism because it doesn't stress that the the equality sought is gender equality. And yes, there are reasons to pursue equal rights for women, and to analyse social and political power differences which are based on gender inequality, rather than other forms of inequality (class, race, etc.).



I don't focus on one particular class of people (well, except transgendered people, because no one really speaks up for the transguys, transgirls, genderqueer, or intersexed), so no label except "egalitarian" would work for me.



I tried to describe a theory that indicates that the egalitarian respect a "feminist", or any one seeking more equality, practices will set the bar for how much they can get since they are essentially redefining "equality". Forget that inequality is obvious and all that, it is not obvious except to the person suffering from the lack of it. The first time I expressed it to a feminist, though, it was interpreted as accusing feminists as being man-haters. How weird is that?

It seems like, if the 90's were about believing that feminists were man-haters, the 00's will be about feminists not knowing when to believe that they are being accused of being man-haters and when they are not, opting for the defensive stance. I guess the problem is that it is taboo to criticize in any form anything a professional feminist has to say unless you are also a non-male feminist, even if the subject is what male social constructs think and feel.

Anyway back to topic at hand, balls. I think balls are a gallant metaphor for male vulnerability for two reasons:

1. They are internal organs that are outside the body, and found only on males.

2. You don't even need much aim to kick them. One leg or the other will guide your foot or ankle to the vulnerable region. Kicking balls is easy peasy!

So "having balls" means possessing confidence within a vulnerable state. "Giving your balls to someone" means becoming vulnerable to someone (presumably to someone that doesn't respect your vulnerability and now controls you). "Shooting your own ball off" means preferring to hurt oneself rather than being hurt by someone else.

Why doesn't any male talk about this? I guess it's not sexy to women looking for a reproductive partner. I'm sexy enough due to good genes, so I guess I get to talk all sensitive and analytically and shit, and you'll read this and think "wow what a loser!", but thing is not everyone knows what a loser I am and I meet people often enough who unknowingly get wet for me! biggrin

Anyway I believe in intimate feminist relationships, perhaps more than unattended casual feminist relationships, because two people can iron out and compromise on a personal level.

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