grazing_cattle said:
This argument might make sence if a human at any point in their lifecycle resembled a plant as much as they do an egg. I was just trying to make the point of when we see an animal as alive in comparason to when we see a human as alive.

You've successfully shifted the goalposts.

You said: "A fetus is alive thus killing it is murder." That logic, taken literally, applies equally to grass. In fact, the cluster of cells that gets aborted usually has a consciousness equivalent to that of grass. They're cells that will become what we recognise as a human, but at that stage they are life without consciousness. Now you're shifting the goalposts and saying "well, yeah, but some time in the future if not aborted, the fetus will have a consciousness greater than that of grass."

Well, duh, but what you said was "A fetus is alive thus killing it is murder." The comparison with grass remains absolutely valid on its face.

You have not been on this site for very long. Trust me when I say that the issue of "when life begins" has been dealt with in past threads on this subject. You coming in and ranting at us like we're missing something obvious is doomed to failure.

I didnot say that sometime in the future the fetus wiill have a consciousness greater then the grass. That was not the point. The fetus is always greater then the grass. Even if it doesn't have a conscious state of being. The cluster of cells that may someday is a fertial egg just like the eagle egg. Hence the comparsion. Also saying "a fetus is alive thus killing it murder" I am defining the fetus as a human as you have to before you can define it as murder.

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN

July 2003

OCT 18, 2007 01:22 PM

But that's not implicit in the statement that "it's alive, thus killing it is murder". Also, there's no point in bringing in bird eggs into the discussion if your criterion is that eliminating the fetus is wrong because the fetus is human.

And what, exactly, is so special about humans that killing them is wrong? Be specific.

grrowler

Sarasota, FL

October 2007

OCT 18, 2007 07:40 PM

malkav11 said:
But that's not implicit in the statement that "it's alive, thus killing it is murder". Also, there's no point in bringing in bird eggs into the discussion if your criterion is that eliminating the fetus is wrong because the fetus is human.

And what, exactly, is so special about humans that killing them is wrong? Be specific.

I'm officially disturbed that you're insinuating that killing humans is right.

Gringo

Spokane, WA

May 2006

OCT 18, 2007 07:56 PM

grazing_cattle said:
I didnot say that sometime in the future the fetus wiill have a consciousness greater then the grass. That was not the point. The fetus is always greater then the grass. Even if it doesn't have a conscious state of being. The cluster of cells that may someday is a fertial egg just like the eagle egg. Hence the comparsion. Also saying "a fetus is alive thus killing it murder" I am defining the fetus as a human as you have to before you can define it as murder.

Then by that logic, sperm is alive.

Each and every sperm cell also has the potential for a "conscious state of being."

I hope you aren't a "murderer."

Clidna

Canada

January 2005

OCT 18, 2007 08:55 PM

grrowler said:

Clidna said:

grrowler said:
Personally if I got pregnant because I was stupid enough not to use contraception, why the hell should the life inside of me have to end because of my incompetence? Convenience? I suppose the therapy sessions I'd have to undergo (because I'd be horrified and anxious about all the what-if's and guilt) would be cheaper than raising a kid, right?

What if you were stupid enough to get pregnant while using contraception? I think that is probably more common... I should know, having gotten pregnant using a condom and while on the pill.

it's said it's nigh impossible to get pregnant if youre taking the pill (especially a monophasic pill) at the same time every day, and not forgetting any pills That's 99.8% effective. If you're making your man use a condom on top of that, you either think he has something/is a cheater or you're not consistently taking the pill every day at the same time, or that .2% chance is too big of a risk to chance it(which in that case, you'd be too paranoid to have sex at all) In the off chance you're just doubling up because you are paranoid (maybe because a girl friend got pregnant) and you still got pregnant, I'd have to wonder if it was meant to be, considering the odds.

When it comes down to it, any method has a chance of failing, no matter how small that chance is. It might be wise to ask yourself before you have sex with someone whether or not you'd be willing to face that difficult decision of abortion or keeping it to term if you did get pregnant or if the guy is the sort of person you'd want to have a baby with. In any case, it's something everyone should discuss with their partner/bf/gf. Consider the what-if's; you might be surprised at the answers.

For the record, 2 seperate times - I got pregnant with my first daughter while using a condom, and pregnant with my second daughter while on the pill. I just re-read what I wrote, and I think I made it sound like I was using both at the same time and still beat the odds. Even I'm not that talented.

Of course it makes sense to have that type of discussion before the deed takes place, but in this day and age with casual sex as popular as it is, it's not always going to happen. Also, I think quite often people make the assumption that they know the other person so well that they know what their answer would be - and find out the hard way that isn't necessarily the case.

Now in my case, I got pregnant unexpectedly, but I didn't actually even consider abortion, I knew it wasn't something I could do. I still believe it is a choice that a woman should be able to make, however.

Clidna

Canada

January 2005

OCT 18, 2007 09:01 PM

dearambellina said:

grrowler said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Honestly I don't know the name of the test... it was just some sort of fertility test. The reason I was suspicious is because I have had a history of not taking to medication well (for example I would take Xanax [alprazolam] for panic attacks, and I would always have to take the highest dosage because I simply would not respond to the lower doses). I would get horrible cramps in the middle of my cycle, very similar to the ones I experienced before I went on the Pill, only worse, and I would also spot a little. In the beginning my doc chalked it up to my body adjusting, but after more than 6 months on the same pill with the same symptoms (this was Yaz by the way, go figure) we did the tests. It could have been because Yaz is low-dose, so I am now taking Yasmin (the original, higher dosage of Yaz) to see if it will correct the problem (this has all been happening recently).
It's pretty disappointing because doctors rave about Yaz being this miracle birth control pill with all the other symptoms it treats - PMDD, acne, etc - but all that shit only got worse for me. Sigh, each woman is different.

The FDA says low-dose pills provide just as much protect as the regular dose, but sometimes I have to wonder......

I imagine it would be a run of the mill ovulation test... you can even buy them in the drugstore nowadays.

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

OCT 18, 2007 09:03 PM

grazing_cattle said:
Also saying "a fetus is alive thus killing it murder" I am defining the fetus as a human as you have to before you can define it as murder.

Right. Your claim of it being murder (in a just-the-facts-ma'am kind of way, ironically enough given this thread's title) is in fact a rhetorical claim, not a factual one. You have defined a fetus as human and hence defined abortion as murder on the basis of the prior definition. This is circular.

I'm sure if humans were an endangered species we'd have a different widespread social attitude to abortion, much as we show different attitudes to chicken eggs versus eagle eggs. The prohibition on killing eagle eggs is not that killing an eagle egg is an act of murder, but that destroying the egg contributes to the problem of endangerment.

grrowler

Sarasota, FL

October 2007

OCT 18, 2007 09:08 PM

Now in my case, I got pregnant unexpectedly, but I didn't actually even consider abortion, I knew it wasn't something I could do. I still believe it is a choice that a woman should be able to make, however.

i feel the same way; while I wouldnt personally choose abortion if I ever had to face the decision, nor do I support it in all cases, I don't think it ought to be illegalized. Then again it might force people to be a little more fucking responsible about birthcontrol and sex in the first place. Just think, anyone who mindlessly has sex unprotected can go to the pharmacy and spend 30$ on a 72hr after-sex pill. The drug companies would rejoice! lol... j/k