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Vermin

Vermin

United Kingdom
July 2007

SEP 18, 2007 01:33 PM

Jesus fucking Christ, this is ridiculous.

"NO" (at whatever fucking volume) followed by SEX equals RAPE. How fucking clear cut do they want it?

tech29

tech29

I'm lost
July 2004

SEP 18, 2007 01:48 PM

Vermin said:
Jesus fucking Christ, this is ridiculous.

"NO" (at whatever fucking volume) followed by SEX equals RAPE. How fucking clear cut do they want it?



Rarely is it ever that clear cut.

d20

d20

San Francisco, CA
September 2003

SEP 18, 2007 02:15 PM

Morgan said:
I understand that people are objecting to the article posted here on the newswire. I was just honestly expecting to see a lot more outrage at what Cosmo thinks is acceptable writing. People should be writing them to let them know that that article is NOT okay.



waaaaaait a minute. so when presented with a pretty clear-cut argument that could be made, Bitch took it the extra mile, fucked it up, and ended up creating a gong show flamewar instead of a discussion of the obvious point of the article?

well i never.

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

SEP 18, 2007 02:28 PM

Uncognitive said:

TheFuckOffKid said:
I agree that there was no consent. I don't think this (Cosmo) writer invented the term. Again, I don't see the writer questioning whether examples like these are not in fact rape -- what I read is the writer examining the phenomenon of the victims in these situations second-guessing themselves afterwards.



The article presents two incredibly clear-cut examples of rape and then describes them thusly:

sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted what.



Again, two examples of a woman explicitly saying no to sex and then being forced to have it anyway are described as falling "somewhere between consent and denial" and not being as "clear-cut" as date rape.

That's not a wee bit offensive?



At the end of the article, it made clear the power that comes from saying to oneself, first off, that one has been a victim.

My reading of this, in total, is that the discussion of "gray rape" is not avout doubting whether a rape occurred, but the victim's state of mind -- that it's easy, whether we like this or not, for a rape victim in Casual Hook Up Land to internalise feelings of "I shouldn't have been there" or "I brought it on myself".

I really fail to see any claim in that piece that rapes did not happen in those particular cases.

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

SEP 18, 2007 02:29 PM

Vermin said:
Jesus fucking Christ, this is ridiculous.

"NO" (at whatever fucking volume) followed by SEX equals RAPE. How fucking clear cut do they want it?



Didn't really read what's been written, did we?

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

SEP 18, 2007 02:38 PM

Pip said:
So:
1) Teach girls not to go back to a guys a room, or invite him to yours alone. Be smart and safe, avoiding the potential situation
2) Teach guys that when a girl goes back to your room alone, that does not mean she has already said yes to sex.



Victim blamer.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
Sorry. tongue

I agree with you.

Once, when I was still in the Feminist Group here, I made the statement that I thought it was important in discussing rape and sexual assault that feminists distinguish the issues of:
- women taking responsibility for self-protection and self-awareness (because they can't assume anyone else will), and
- men taking responsibility for not raping women.

I thought at the time that someone would jump up and down and get angry at me and accuse me of blaming-the-victim, but nobody did. I thought, wow, things really have moved on. The nature of the discussion really seems to be changing.

Then I read threads like this and think, noooo, same old same old.

micajah

micajah

Mcallen, TX
January 2003

SEP 18, 2007 02:47 PM

what if....

first date scenario

----------------------------------------------
the girl says "I don't want to have sex tonight," early on.
Then says "lets have sex," later when she is drunk.

the guy, drunk as well, is all for having sex and lets her make the progressions.
she even grabs his dick and sticks it in her vagina.

next morning she wakes up next to him and doesn't remember anything.
and decides she wouldn't have slept with him if it wasn't for the alcohol.

Could this be considered rape?
(only alcohol was ingested and both parties drank of their own accord.)
-----------------------------------------------

I feel like it's an obvious "Duh! Of course not."

I just wanted to read different opinions.


p.s. I am aware that there may be spelling/grammatical errors

Gringo

Gringo

Spokane, WA
May 2006

SEP 18, 2007 02:47 PM

d20 said:
waaaaaait a minute. so when presented with a pretty clear-cut argument that could be made, Bitch took it the extra mile, fucked it up, and ended up creating a gong show flamewar instead of a discussion of the obvious point of the article?


In previous threads, I've tried to point out the fact that the delivery is every bit as important as the message itself. The spin, in combination with the tone of the articles tend to overpower the actual points worth discussing.

Unfortunately, many people tend to be overly self-righteous and refuse to utilize any sort of constructive criticism.

Gringo

Gringo

Spokane, WA
May 2006

SEP 18, 2007 02:54 PM

micajah said:
what if....

first date scenario

----------------------------------------------
the girl says "I don't want to have sex tonight," early on.
Then says "lets have sex," later when she is drunk.

the guy, drunk as well, is all for having sex and lets her make the progressions.
she even grabs his dick and sticks it in her vagina.

next morning she wakes up next to him and doesn't remember anything.
and decides she wouldn't have slept with him if it wasn't for the alcohol.

Could this be considered rape?
(only alcohol was ingested and both parties drank of their own accord.)
-----------------------------------------------

I feel like it's an obvious "Duh! Of course not."

I just wanted to read different opinions.


I wouldn't consider it rape. People change their minds.

Just like someone may think they want sex and agree to it but then change their mind right before actually engaging in it. It's still their right to change their decision either way.

On the alcohol issue, I don't think that anyone can ever use that as an excuse for any behavior. Everyone is responsible for their one alcohol consumption.

Of course, having something slipped into a drink is an entirely different story.


p.s. I am aware that there may be spelling/grammatical errors

You live in the United States. You're expected for have poor spelling and grammar skills. It's what makes us 'Mericans.

Uncognitive

Uncognitive

Brooklyn, NY
May 2003

SEP 18, 2007 03:04 PM

TheFuckOffKid said:
My reading of this, in total, is that the discussion of "gray rape" is not avout doubting whether a rape occurred, but the victim's state of mind -- that it's easy, whether we like this or not, for a rape victim in Casual Hook Up Land to internalise feelings of "I shouldn't have been there" or "I brought it on myself".

I really fail to see any claim in that piece that rapes did not happen in those particular cases.



That's not what the article does. The article uses at least three examples of clear-cut acquaintance rape and then minimizes them by claiming they're really this new thing those college hook-up kids call "gray rape" because it somehow actually invovled

"sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted what."



The first three examples in the article are not "more confusing than date rape", and the issues of consent are clear as fucking crystal. In both cases the woman said no, and the men raped them. Period.

Claiming that those rapes fell anywhere between consent and denial is bullshit. Claiming that both parties were unsure about who wanted what is bullshit.

It's also annoying now that the concept of "date rape" is considered to actually be rape (Katie Roiphe notwithstanding), that anyone feels compelled to invent or popularize a new bullshit phrase to try and make women feel uncertain or guilty about what "real rape" actually is.

Plus there's the whole "You shouldn't blame yourself, except you have to admit if you weren't a drunken slut who goes home with men you wouldn't get gray raped" tone to the second half of the article, but hey, I guess I'm stuck in the 90's or something.

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

SEP 18, 2007 03:29 PM

Uncognitive said:
The article uses at least three examples of clear-cut acquaintance rape and then minimizes them by claiming they're really this new thing those college hook-up kids call "gray rape"



a) I have no idea who's pioneered or continued to use the "gray rape" term. Is it college kids?

b) The first person in the article, Alicia, says herself of her own experience that "It fell into a gray area" before the writer ever uses the term "gray rape."

I'm not disputing with you or with Morgan that in fact the case is clear, and it's rape. No argument from me.

I'm explaining why my first reaction to this article was not outrage, but an impression that this was discussing the states of mind of people who would say of an experience where they'd been raped, "It was kind of a gray area, and I wasn't sure whether I'd been raped."

Put it another way: imagine a women's studies class about rape and sexual assault, that used this article as a device to engender classroom discussion. Imagine it's used to stimulate discussion on everything from self-protection strategies, on the importance and the power of saying no, and on the importance of being able to acknowledge that rape has in fact occurred when that "no" has been ignored. Not to mention on the teaching of young men to understand what is and is not appropriate behaviour, let alone what's legally permissible.

The alternative scenario would be to run a class with this as a discussion piece, which would be used to make the point that the media is sexist and this writer is a victim-blaming fool.

I, personally, can see this article being used in the first scenario, but it seems like for some people the only appropriate use of it would be in the second.

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

SEP 18, 2007 04:04 PM

DevilsReject said:

The young woman testified that she could not remember sending the messages to Owens and that someone had closed the instant-message window on her computer, so they weren't retrievable.



I find this a bit shady. Being that they can retrieve information off formatted hard drives, why would it be so hard to retrieve closed out instant message windows, i am sure there is some tiny bit of memory somewhere that could be retrieved to give them information.

Being sober, 99% of the time i DD. I have taken drunk girls home and put them to bed with nothing more happening. I'd rather wake up in the morning knowing i did the right thing, than have her wake up regretting what she did. I almost always get a thank you for that. I prefer my friends feel safe around me.

It's really not that hard of a decision to make.



DevilsReject gets it.

Which is more important to you, guys? Getting laid, or not being a rapist? If there's any doubt--if a girl says no and then later says yes and you feel like she's being "coy" and you're NOT SURE WHAT SHE WANTS, then yeah: you say no.

That's what responsible adults do.

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

SEP 18, 2007 04:07 PM

Ascanius said:

TNTkatie said:


Bitch_PhD thinks the best way to prevent rape is to teach boys to take no for an answer.



amen



I think this is a good strategy, but it seems your tactics in implementing that strategy need work. Making boys feel defensive and alienated is not the way to teach them anything. And if you don't think you're making boys feel alienated and defensive, read the responses to your articles sometime.

That said, that article is the most fucked up thing I've read in as long as I can remember. When a woman says but does not scream 'no' it falls somewhere between consent and rape? What the fuck?



Honey, I'm powerful--but I'm not that powerful. I can't *make* anyone feel anything. If the boys feel defensive and alienated, that's their problem--not mine.

smockers

smockers

USA
March 2005

SEP 18, 2007 04:09 PM

JunkyardAngel said:

creativename said:
OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THE GUYS RESPONDING TO THIS POSITION



Anthony Moniello, 24, a radio personality for ESPN, says, "I've had girls tell me 'I don't have sex on the first night.' And I say, 'That's fine, I respect that. Mind if I play with you a little bit?' A girl will say no, she doesn't mind, then she'll get so hot, she'll say, 'Let's do it.' That's the scariest part. Is it then my responsibility to say no?"


Yes. Welcome to the grownup world, where women and men are responsible for sex and for respecting their partner's expressed wishes.



YES YOU SHOULD SAY NO. YES YOU SHOULD BE THE GENTLEMEN. YES YOU SHOULD WAIT UNTIL THE SECOND DATE!

YOU SHOULD BE THE GOOD GUY!!! YOU SHOULD SAY NO!!!!!

and then maybe you would have a successful relationship happen out of dating.



A girl who says, "I do not have sex on the first date" then lets a guy get all hot and heavy (in the article's scenario--he ASKED her and she was apparently sober), then says yes do me do me - well, okay, a guy could and probably should choose to "be the gentleman" - but if he does nto choose to "be the gentleman" - it is still not rape.

There is a difference between weak will, bad choices, etc. - and forced, violent unwanted violation. Trust me.



So, 'being the gentleman' means making a decision for a female - that is, listening to what she is asking for and then saying 'BUT, she is a girl who does not know what is good for her'?

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

SEP 18, 2007 04:12 PM

TNTkatie said:


Bitch_PhD thinks the best way to prevent rape is to teach boys to take no for an answer.



amen



+1

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

SEP 18, 2007 04:15 PM

malkav11 said:

creativename said:
OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THE GUYS RESPONDING TO THIS POSITION



Anthony Moniello, 24, a radio personality for ESPN, says, "I've had girls tell me 'I don't have sex on the first night.' And I say, 'That's fine, I respect that. Mind if I play with you a little bit?' A girl will say no, she doesn't mind, then she'll get so hot, she'll say, 'Let's do it.' That's the scariest part. Is it then my responsibility to say no?"


Yes. Welcome to the grownup world, where women and men are responsible for sex and for respecting their partner's expressed wishes.



YES YOU SHOULD SAY NO. YES YOU SHOULD BE THE GENTLEMEN. YES YOU SHOULD WAIT UNTIL THE SECOND DATE!

YOU SHOULD BE THE GOOD GUY!!! YOU SHOULD SAY NO!!!!!

and then maybe you would have a successful relationship happen out of dating.



Sure. I venture many of the people in this thread would probably agree that saying no may well be the gentlemanly thing to do. (I don't think *I* would even ask for the fondling, myself.). But what people are reacting to is the notion that he should say no because it would otherwise be rape. Which is, so far as I can tell, bullshit.



It's interesting how we've got a lot of comments saying "there's nothing wrong with telling women how to avoid rape" and at the same time a lot of comments arguing that telling menhow to avoid rape--don't have sex with someone if they're sending mixed signals, duh--is "bullshit."

Making a decision not to have sex with someone in a situation that makes you feel uncomfortable is not making a decision "for" them. It's making a decision for yourself. Women's agency does not erase men's. Both people have to agree to have sex; if one person isn't sure for whatever reason--whether that reason is they don't want to, or they think their partner doesn't want to--then they oughta say no.

It's not that damn hard.

ElizaTheTroll

ElizaTheTroll

Australia
January 2006

SEP 18, 2007 05:10 PM

Bitch_PhD said:


Anthony Moniello, 24, a radio personality for ESPN, says, "I've had girls tell me 'I don't have sex on the first night.' And I say, 'That's fine, I respect that. Mind if I play with you a little bit?' A girl will say no, she doesn't mind, then she'll get so hot, she'll say, 'Let's do it.' That's the scariest part. Is it then my responsibility to say no?"



It's interesting how we've got a lot of comments saying "there's nothing wrong with telling women how to avoid rape" and at the same time a lot of comments arguing that telling menhow to avoid rape--don't have sex with someone if they're sending mixed signals, duh--is "bullshit."



Good point! In the case of the scenario we're discussing, however, it seems less like mixed signals rather than a genuine change of mind. I completely agree that the other person (independent of anyone's gender, by the way) should make extra sure in such a situation that there is indeed clear, informed consent, or whatever the magic phrase may be ("You're sure?", "You're not going to regret it later?", etc.). But I don't see any responsibility to still say no if that's the case.

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

SEP 18, 2007 05:26 PM

OlafTheTroll said:
In the case of the scenario we're discussing, however, it seems less like mixed signals rather than a genuine change of mind.



Well, it's hard to tell; but I don't see what's to be scared of if you're sure someone has changed their mind, no? But the "mind if I play with you a little bit" sounds kind of one-sided, and you know, if you're *scared*, then you should say no.

Of course people can change their minds. It happens all the time. But if you are not certain that that's what's happened--and that the mind-change is uncoerced, whether by drink, momentary excitement, or anything else--then yes: it is your responsibility to say no. Not for her, but for yourself: because you are "scared" and not sure.

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

SEP 18, 2007 05:31 PM

"Let's do it" is mixed signals?

Gringo

Gringo

Spokane, WA
May 2006

SEP 18, 2007 05:49 PM

malkav11 said:
"Let's do it" is mixed signals?


Sure. One person could be confused as to whether the other is up for sex....or about to shoot a new tandem actor Nike commercial.

d20

d20

San Francisco, CA
September 2003

SEP 18, 2007 06:00 PM

TheGringo said:

malkav11 said:
"Let's do it" is mixed signals?


Sure. One person could be confused as to whether the other is up for sex....or about to shoot a new tandem actor Nike commercial.



or maybe even "Let's do this", which could simply be a nerdy girl quoting Leeroy Jenkins.

MissMir

MissMir

USA
November 2004

SEP 18, 2007 06:05 PM

TheFuckOffKid said:

Sheepnumber97245 said:


Bitch_PhD thinks the best way to prevent rape is to teach boys to take no for an answer.



I would have to agree.



I would offer that a really important early step in preventing rape is defining it sensibly.

Like, you know, not saying that a guy who has sex with a girl who says no then later says yes has raped said girl because she said no before she said yes.

That kind of thing. It'd be nce if we could all agree on cases like that so we knew which "no" men should be taking for an answer.




I'd agree with you on that as well.

theconservative

theconservative

Spring, TX
October 2004

SEP 18, 2007 06:10 PM

if the girl doesn't consider it rape, it's not rape.

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

SEP 18, 2007 06:36 PM

theconservative said:
if the girl doesn't consider it rape, it's not rape.



Bullshit. In the really fucked up mental state that often happens after a sexual assault, a girl could easily blame herself and say she should have fought harder, said no louder, etcetc. That doesn't mean she wasn't raped. Many, many a victim has spent a long time in denial before coming to terms with their experience.

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

SEP 18, 2007 06:36 PM

Bitch_PhD said:
Which is more important to you, guys? Getting laid, or not being a rapist? If there's any doubt--if a girl says no and then later says yes and you feel like she's being "coy" and you're NOT SURE WHAT SHE WANTS, then yeah: you say no.

That's what responsible adults do.



You're talking about considerate behaviour.

Being a gentleman.

Being thoughtful.

Being ethical.

All of which are worthwhile things to talk about.

You're not talking about rape here. Rape is not part of the scenario you're discussing.

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