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Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 06, 2007 10:56 PM



Welcome to the fourth installment of SubrosaÂ’s SCOTUS Interruptus, a quasi-weekly column dedicated to keeping the SuicideGirls.com community abreast (hey-o!) of the CourtÂ’s important decisions, argument schedule and whatever else is relevant for that particular week. As always, a record of the opinions published by the Court can be found on their website here.

With the end of this yearÂ’s Supreme Court term, itÂ’s only natural to look back at the entirety of it to try to glean some understanding of the CourtÂ’s current incarnation. As we discussed last week, commentators are already looking at this Court as one of the most closely divided and sharply partisan Courts in history.

Fully a third of the court’s decisions, more than in any recent term, were decided by 5-to-4 margins. Most of those, 19 of 24, were decided along ideological lines, demonstrating the court’s polarization whether on constitutional fundamentals or obscure questions of appellate procedure. The court’s last-minute decision, announced on Friday, to hear appeals from Guantánamo detainees required votes from at least five of the nine justices.

Of the ideological cases decided this term, the conservative majority, led by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and joined by Justices Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr., prevailed in 13. The court’s increasingly marginalized liberals — Justices John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer — prevailed in only six, including the four Texas death penalty cases.

The difference depended on how Justice Anthony M. Kennedy voted. Remarkably, he was in the majority in all 24 of the 5-to-4 cases. In the 68 cases the court decided by signed opinions, Justice Kennedy dissented only twice.


And of course, weÂ’ve already discussed how The Notorious J.A.K. rolls. I re-iterate this point not simply because it is truly astonishing, but because it becomes very important when analyzing what could become the most important decision of the term: Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District 1.

In Parents Involved the primary issue presented was essentially this: Should a high school be allowed to undertake admissions programs designed to even out the racial balance of their school while using race as a determinative factor to do just that? The Court’s answer was, as you’ve all probably heard by now, essentially “no.” But what did that “no” mean and what can we learn from the nearly 200 pages of opinions, concurrences and dissents that accompanied it? How do schools go about achieving integration in the future? Can they even try if they want to? Does Parents Involved overrule Brown v. Board of Education?

The general consensus answer to all of those questions seems to be: Well, weÂ’re not sure. (Come on, you werenÂ’t looking for a simple answer here, were you?)

The one big reason why we don’t really know what legacy Parents Involved will leave us is that while it was decided 5-4, the “official” opinion of the court was only joined by four Justices (Roberts, Scalia, ScAlito and ScaThomas), not the five that they would need to earn a majority opinion. The dissent was joined by four justices (Breyer, Souter, Stevens and Ginsberg). Which left one Justice to write a concurring opinion. If you don’t know which Justice that was you haven’t been paying attention.

HereÂ’s the extreme shorthand of what happened:

-ROBERTS, SCALIA, ALITO, THOMAS: Race may never be used as the determinative factor in admissions in public schools.

-BREYER, SOUTER, STEVENS, GINSBERG: Race may be used as the determinative factor in admissions in public schools so long as it is there to correct past racial segregation or injustice.

-KENNEDY: Race may sometimes in certain, distinct cases be used as a factor in admissions in public schools, but just not in this case because it is the sole determinative factor.

So what are we left with? Many commentators are simply saying “do the math.” When you add up the votes for the ability of schools to use race in some cases you get 5 votes (the dissenters plus Captain Wins All The Time.) In essence, the “opinion” of the Court ends up being in the minority when it comes to the issue of whether race can ever be used to help balance schools. Welcome to the wacky world of Supreme Court Jurisprudence.

So, we toss out the majority opinion, right? Well, sorta. We have to look at what Kennedy agreed with the Roberts faction on first before we can glean any actual rules from the decision. HereÂ’s one manÂ’s take on it. (some internal citations omitted)

Here is what is clear from Justice KennedyÂ’s opinion. First, there is a compelling governmental interest in school diversity that can justify certain uses of race.

Second, and relatedly, the Constitution does not require color-blindness.

Third, direct racial classifications like those in the Seattle and Louisville programs are subject to strict scrutiny and may be employed only after other alternatives are first explored and have failed. (“individual racial classifications employed in this manner may be considered only if they are a last resort to achieve a compelling interest.”); (these programs are unconstitutional because “the schools could have achieved their stated ends through different means”).

Fourth, and on the other hand, certain uses of race are sufficiently innocuous that they do not trigger strict scrutiny review and are per se constitutional. Schools may take account of race in such decisions as “site selection of new schools; drawing attendance zones with general recognition of the demographics of neighborhoods; allocating resources for special programs; recruiting students and faculty in a targeted fashion; and tracking enrollments, performance, and other statistics by race.” … These are “race-conscious measures [that] address the problem in a general way and without treating each student in [a] different fashion solely on the basis of a systematic, individual typing by race”


While that’s all well and good, it’s also extremely frustrating on many levels. While Kennedy, to his credit, did not go out of his way to “circumrule” entirely around applicable precedent (see: Grutter v. Bollinger; Freeman v. Pitts; and Brown v. Fucking Board of Fucking Education, among others) that should have led the Court to the inescapable conclusion that the programs at issue here were constitutional, he also left the primary question wide open. To wit: what the fuck are schools realistically supposed to do if they want to encourage racial diversity?

Justice KennedyÂ’s proposed alternative that schools consider race as one among many factors in admissions (a la Grutter) strikes me as impractical. K-12 school assignment is not comparable to the admissions process for college and graduate programs. For resource reasons at the very least, school districts must paint with a much broader brush. I am not aware of a non-magnet program in which school districts regularly consider individual criteria in assigning the thousands of students within their jurisdictionÂ….

Lacking the resources that would be required to implement such a holistic approach honestly, it is most likely that school districts do one of two things. They may give up altogether on the effort to consider the race of individual students in placement. This is the probable result in most cases, and it produces as a practical matter the approach that the plurality today believes is required constitutionally (at least absent a compelling evidentiary showing). Alternatively, school administrators may engage in an “under the table” consideration of race, attempting to force the racial integration of schools without any express acknowledgment of the effort.


Herein lies the real tragedy of the Parents Involved. Lacking any true guidance as to what is and what is not ultimately permissible, cash-strapped school districts around the country are not going to take the risk of exposing themselves to future litigation on the hopes that their particular program *might* pass constitutional muster. In other words, racial integration in public schools could be, for all intents and purposes, finished.

Some have (disgustingly) hailed Parents Involved for doing just that. After all, didnÂ’t Brown say that all racial classifications are automatically unconstitutional?

Well, no, in fact. It fucking didnÂ’t, despite Justices Roberts and ThomasÂ’ assertions to the contrary.

In passionate dissents, justices John Paul Stevens and Stephen G. Breyer lament the conservatives' treatment of Brown. Stevens describes their reliance on Brown as "cruel irony." And Breyer describes their comparison of state-mandated racial segregation in the 1950s with contemporary voluntary desegregation plans as a "cruel distortion of history."

Stevens and Breyer are right. The offense they have taken at Roberts' and Thomas' treatment of Brown is entirely appropriate. The plurality and concurring opinions undermine and misinterpret decades of efforts to undo the long American history of racial segregation, discrimination, and inequality.

The question we need to ask is: How did the conservative justices manage to appropriate Brown so completely? How did they so easily convert Brown from an opinion championing racial equality into one that countenances—even requires—continuing racial inequality and segregation in the name of the Constitution? The answer is simple: through abstraction. They have abstracted a decades-long struggle for racial progress into a single formalistic harm: government classifications on the basis of race.


That perversion of the spirit and holding of Brown has culminated in Parents Involved. It is a world where racial inequality does not exist, and even if it did, we would be powerless to address it. In one way, I am almost glad that Justice Thurgood Marshall is not alive to see how his arguments in Brown have been co-opted to institutionalize racial separation. The shock might kill him all over again.

Gerry_D

Gerry_D

Los Angeles, CA
May 2003

JUL 08, 2007 05:18 PM

what the frak??

i feel like we were in a transporter accident and we left our universe and slipped into the one. nothing surprises me anymore.

hellboy7

hellboy7

Austin, TX
July 2004

JUL 08, 2007 08:06 PM

Ok ok ok. Big deep breath. Whew. WHAT THE FUCK!?!?! Did we just make one HUGE ass U turn and undo all thats been accomplished in the last 40 years?? Someone please tell me they didn't just make an open road for discrimination by sitting on their hands and saying, "Nope Brown meant you can't intergrate." http://www.lawmemo.com/sct/05/Parents/

Where the hell can I buy some pitchforks and torches? Cause they just let out the monster and gave him a free ticket to kill equality. (Yes, I know. The monster was not a villian but a tragic example of mans over reach, sanctity of soul v technological advances. Its the only metaphore I could come up with in discribing the monster that is racism.)

Reads to me like Roberts and the gang have found a way to justify the economic gentrification of school districts by segregating the have nots while satisfying the needs of white parents and childrens needs to request the specific schools they so choose to attend, instead of simply expanding the possible interpretation of Brown v. Board.

UUUGGGHHHH. And before you think I am making a knee jerk liberal reaction, I am a parent who is actively involved with his childrens school district, a very conservative school district. I moved into the current school district to provide my kids with the best possible education. When it came time to assign my kids to a school, I worked with the district instead of suing their asses. Why? Cause sometimes a little common sense and talking things out will go a long way. Meredith, thats the moms name btw, got here way here. But in the process, the ideals and accomplishment that is Brown v. The Board of Education has now been bastardized.

Rockoval

Rockoval

I'm lost
July 2006

JUL 08, 2007 08:08 PM

I think that cases like this really miss the underlining problem. The reason U.S. schools are still de-facto segregated is because our communities are still de-facto segregated. My city is really divided in to three parts, blacks in the north east, hispanics in the south east, and whites everywhere else. It is really sad that people are still afraid to reach out to other groups. If there were some way to encourage minorities to move to white majority school districts and vice versa the debate about school segregation would be rendered moot.

Strelnikov

Strelnikov

Holden, MA
March 2007

JUL 08, 2007 08:14 PM

I would rather admission decisions be made on something more material than race, like poverty or the history of one's family's education. I wouldn't want to lose my spot in a school to someone simply because his skin has a little more melanin than does mine. However, I would gladly cede my spot to someone who doesn't have the means to seek alternative sources of education, or who is the first of his family to have a hope of higher education.

Necia

Necia

San Francisco, CA
August 2005

JUL 08, 2007 08:29 PM

As an aside, something that has struck me as sad about the aftermath of this decision and all the questions on how to apply it is how many school administrators I've read about who have said, "Well, frankly, this might not make a huge difference practically speaking, because if we just shift our focus to socioeconomic status instead of race when allocating students, we'll get basically the same racial diversity that we would have had we focused directly on race anyway." So as long as enough of the students are poor, enough of the students will also not be white.

No racial inequality left in this country. Not at all. surreal

More on topic: if, in any of the constitutional law coursework I've done, I'd tried to twist Brown to argue what Thomas and Scalia and Roberts and Alito argued here, my prof wouldn't have let me continue more than thirty seconds into such a bullshit interpretation. Precisely no one who was actually involved in Brown who's still around today agrees with a single thing those men have said about it in this opinion.

Necia

Necia

San Francisco, CA
August 2005

JUL 08, 2007 08:33 PM

Strelnikov said:
I would rather admission decisions be made on something more material than race, like poverty or the history of one's family's education. I wouldn't want to lose my spot in a school to someone simply because his skin has a little more melanin than does mine. However, I would gladly cede my spot to someone who doesn't have the means to seek alternative sources of education, or who is the first of his family to have a hope of higher education.



This case isn't dealing with higher education at all. It's dealing with student placement in public school with a goal of maintaining racially balanced public schools--a public high school, in this specific case, although the ruling applies as well to public primary schools. That's the reason people are talking about Brown v. Board of Education with relation to this case--because Brown is the decision that desegregated U.S. public primary and secondary schools. It has nothing to do with post-secondary education.

'Tis often best to read the article prior to commenting.

AceT

AceT

Portland, OR
April 2004

JUL 08, 2007 08:42 PM



jtemperance

jtemperance

Chicago, IL
January 2004

JUL 08, 2007 10:25 PM

Hey! Why should "Brown" have a fucking voice in a free society anyhoo?

scylis

scylis

USA
November 2004

JUL 08, 2007 11:03 PM

Thanks. This breakdown was kinda what i was looking for in past SCOTUS Interruptus segments. It clears up a few things and reasons for opinions. Now all that confuses me is: how could a 100% good verdict ever come from these cases in the first place, and why must our education system suck so horribly?

i mean, really, that's what it all boils down to as far as all of this is concerned: our school systems are a gigantic ball of suck thanks to all the bureaucracy it entails. from funding to the whole "No Child Left Behind" pros and (major) cons to segregation/anti-segregation woes. it just makes me want to take a hammer to my headbones. and i love my headbones.

ok, what country is credited with the best educational system? i think i might move there if i ever think of procreating.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 08, 2007 11:18 PM

AceT said:




This cartoon is so, so very telling. It's really quite staggering how much precedent has been overturned, ignored and "circumruled" this term. And flippantly so. It has made every single Scalia opinion where he cries and whines about stare decisis or bright line rules ring even hollower than they did before. And that takes a lot.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 08, 2007 11:21 PM

Necia said:

Strelnikov said:
I would rather admission decisions be made on something more material than race, like poverty or the history of one's family's education. I wouldn't want to lose my spot in a school to someone simply because his skin has a little more melanin than does mine. However, I would gladly cede my spot to someone who doesn't have the means to seek alternative sources of education, or who is the first of his family to have a hope of higher education.



This case isn't dealing with higher education at all. It's dealing with student placement in public school with a goal of maintaining racially balanced public schools--a public high school, in this specific case, although the ruling applies as well to public primary schools. That's the reason people are talking about Brown v. Board of Education with relation to this case--because Brown is the decision that desegregated U.S. public primary and secondary schools. It has nothing to do with post-secondary education.

'Tis often best to read the article prior to commenting.



Moreover, it's not an affirmative action case at all. That's the thing that so many people are missing about this. This case is NOT NOT NOT about giving any one race preference when it comes to admissions at better schools. This case is about the absolute destruction of programs that ensure that people who are going to public school are exposed to different races, different cultures and different values than the ones of their own.

This case is about undoing the practical impact of Brown, not racial preferences.

Shakyamuni

Shakyamuni

I'm lost
December 2006

JUL 09, 2007 12:11 AM

Ya, that's all well and good, but the real question is this:

What GOD do I need to pray to to get SCALIA to FUCKING DIE?

How is it that every other fat turgid colostomy bag surprise in a black mu mu has diabetes and gout and a heart one episode of Walker Texas Ranger from exploding, and that fucker continues to live.

IS THERE NO GOD????

mahogany

mahogany

I'm lost
May 2005

JUL 09, 2007 12:12 AM

Hey Subrosa, thanks for making SG newswire a little more akin to NEWS. Good analysis and really clearly laid out.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 09, 2007 07:08 AM

Shakyamuni said:
What GOD do I need to pray to to get SCALIA to FUCKING DIE?



Not that I necessarily recommend it, but I'd try Justice Kennedy. He seems to make the decisions about everything else around here.

Charybdus

Charybdus

Lafayette, LA
July 2006

JUL 09, 2007 07:10 AM

I consider myself moderate, and I don't particulary disagree with the decision with the following ceveat:

The goal here ought to be to improve ALL schools rather than shipping minority students to suburban, mostly white schools. It just doesn't seem fair to me that the minority students would have to get up at 4:30 AM every day to go to school miles away from home to satisfy a quota. Why not ship in the white kids and improve minorty-heavy schools?

Why not take all that money being spent on bussing and spend it on computers or books or teacher pay raises? I understand what was trying to be accomplished by the bussing, but I think there is a time when enough is enough. I am not saying that "separate is equal" but I personally know people who have moved from one school district to another to avoid bussing. Is it fair that only the affluent have that option?

Its a complicated issue and I don't claim to know everything about it, but people should try to keep an open mind and hope that this decision promotes equality rather than enforce quotas.

Just recall opinions are like assholes, everyone has them and they all stink!

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 09, 2007 07:18 AM

Charybdus said:

The goal here ought to be to improve ALL schools rather than shipping minority students to suburban, mostly white schools. It just doesn't seem fair to me that the minority students would have to get up at 4:30 AM every day to go to school miles away from home to satisfy a quota. Why not ship in the white kids and improve minorty-heavy schools?


Uh, they did do, in fact, just that.

Why not take all that money being spent on bussing and spend it on computers or books or teacher pay raises? I understand what was trying to be accomplished by the bussing, but I think there is a time when enough is enough.


Not to say there isn't an issue of allocation of resources, however the "enough is enough" sentiment is woefully misplaced. Schools in most areas are de facto segregated just as they were 20-30-40 years ago. This decision is only going to further entrench that segregation.

Its a complicated issue and I don't claim to know everything about it, but people should try to keep an open mind and hope that this decision promotes equality rather than enforce quotas.


The idea of "equality" is amorphous at best. This decision draws a clean line between de jure segregation and de facto segregation and says that while the former is (rightfully) impermissible, it is actually impermissible to do anything about the latter.

Just recall opinions are like assholes, everyone has them and they all stink!


Dude. That's so deep. Do you have any other bumper stickers you'd like to recite? I can't wait.

IDGAS

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY
March 2004

JUL 09, 2007 08:04 AM

From today's New York Times Editorials & Opinions page Adam Cohen wrote


The Supreme Court told Seattle and Louisville, and hundreds more cities and counties, last month that they have to scrap their integration programs. There is a word for judges who invoke the Constitution to tell democratically elected officials how to do their jobs: activist.

President Bush, who created the court's conservative majority when he appointed Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito, campaigned against activist judges, and promised to nominate judges who would "interpret the law, not try to make law." Largely because of Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito, the court has just completed one of its most activist terms in years.

The individuals and groups that have been railing against judicial activism should be outraged. They are not, though, because their criticism has always been of "liberal activist judges." Now we have conservative ones, who use their judicial power on behalf of employers who mistreat their workers, tobacco companies, and whites who do not want to be made to go to school with blacks.

The most basic charge against activist judges has always been that they substitute their own views for those of the elected branches. The court's conservative majority did just that this term. It blithely overruled Congress, notably by nullifying a key part of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law, a popular law designed to reduce the role of special-interest money in politics.

It also overturned the policies of federal agencies, which are supposed to be given special deference because of their expertise. In a pay-discrimination case, the majority interpreted the Civil Rights Act of 1964 in a bizarre way that makes it extremely difficult for many victims of discrimination to prevail. The majority did not care that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has long interpreted the law in just the opposite way.

The court also eagerly overturned its own precedents. In an antitrust case, it gave corporations more leeway to collude and drive up prices by reversing 96-year-old case law. In its ruling upholding the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, it almost completely reversed its decision from 2000 on a nearly identical law.

The school integration ruling was the most activist of all. The campaign against "activist judges" dates back to the civil rights era, when whites argued that federal judges had no right to order the Jim Crow South to desegregate. These critics insisted they were not against integration; they simply opposed judges' telling elected officials what to do.

This term, the court did precisely what those federal judges did: it invoked the 14th Amendment to tell localities how to assign students to schools. The Roberts Court's ruling had an extra fillip of activism. The civil rights era judges were on solid ground in saying that the 14th Amendment, which was adopted after the Civil War to bring former slaves into society, supported integration. Today's conservative majority makes the much less obvious argument that the 14th Amendment protects society from integration.

With few exceptions, the court's activism was in service of a conservative ideology. The justices invoked the due process clause in a novel way to overturn a jury's award of $79.5 million in punitive damages against Philip Morris, which for decades misrepresented the harm of smoking. It is hard to imagine that Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito, who were in the majority, would have supported this sort of "judge-made law" as readily if the beneficiary were not a corporation.

The conservative activism that is taking hold is troubling in two ways. First, it is likely to make America a much harsher place. Companies like Philip Morris will be more likely to injure consumers if they know the due process clause will save them. Employees will be freer to mistreat workers like Lilly Ledbetter, who was for years paid less than her male colleagues, if they know that any lawsuit she files is likely to be thrown out on a technicality.

We have seen this before. In the early 1900s, the court routinely struck down worker protections, including minimum wage and maximum hours laws, and Congressional laws against child labor. That period, known as the Lochner era _ after a 1905 ruling that a New York maximum hours law violated the employer's due process rights _ is considered one of the court's darkest.

We are not in a new Lochner era, but traces of one are emerging. This court is already the most pro-business one in years, and one or two more conservative appointments could take it to a new level. Janice Rogers Brown, a federal appeals court judge who is often mentioned as a future Supreme Court nominee, has expressly called for a return to the Lochner era.

The other disturbing aspect of the new conservative judicial activism is its dishonesty. The conservative justices claim to support "judicial modesty," but reviews of the court's rulings over the last few years show that they have actually voted more often to overturn laws passed by Congress _ the ultimate act of judicial activism _ than has the liberal bloc.

It is time to admit that all judges are activists for their vision of the law. Once that is done, the focus can shift to where it should be: on whose vision is more faithful to the Constitution, and better for the nation.


I think this says it all about the honesty of the American conservative movement.

Heathen_Dave

Heathen_Dave

Birmingham, AL
July 2005

JUL 09, 2007 08:59 AM

Subrosa said:
The idea of "equality" is amorphous at best. This decision draws a clean line between de jure segregation and de facto segregation and says that while the former is (rightfully) impermissible, it is actually impermissible to do anything about the latter.



When you say it like this, it doesn't do a good job of promoting your argument. Since so many people choose where they live based on the quality of education in an area, is it really government's place to usurp that decision and move their children to schools that are farther away solely because that school needs more racial diversity?

This sort of forced diversity is treating symptoms of a deeper issue. Cosby knows the score.

Rockoval

Rockoval

I'm lost
July 2006

JUL 09, 2007 09:16 AM

Heathen_Dave said:

Subrosa said:
The idea of "equality" is amorphous at best. This decision draws a clean line between de jure segregation and de facto segregation and says that while the former is (rightfully) impermissible, it is actually impermissible to do anything about the latter.



When you say it like this, it doesn't do a good job of promoting your argument. Since so many people choose where they live based on the quality of education in an area, is it really government's place to usurp that decision and move their children to schools that are farther away solely because that school needs more racial diversity?

This sort of forced diversity is treating symptoms of a deeper issue. Cosby knows the score.



I agree Heather_Dave, but it doesn't look like this is a popular opinion on this board. As much as I hate segregation, I hate the idea that the goverment has a right to make decisions based on race more.

RileyStClair

RileyStClair

Los Angeles, CA
September 2006

JUL 09, 2007 09:28 AM

Necia said:
More on topic: if, in any of the constitutional law coursework I've done, I'd tried to twist Brown to argue what Thomas and Scalia and Roberts and Alito argued here, my prof wouldn't have let me continue more than thirty seconds into such a bullshit interpretation.



mine either.
then again my constitutional law professor was erwin chemerinsky.

purplegoat

purplegoat

I'm lost
July 2007

JUL 09, 2007 10:33 AM

i say we look at all of this in the context of how much so many of the american youth have to suffer because of this. you can either have them bused miles away from home in hoopes of the end of segregation in schools or you can leave the status quo as is and watch as more and more young people get the shaft on so much because of what race they are or where they live.

i went to school in an urban district and felt like i got the shaft because i saw first hand how little anyone cared in those schools because of instead of people worrying about the education that people are getting, they are more worried about whether or not whether they have enough of each race to say that the are segregated and whether they can find a loop whole to pass on enough people who cant even read to meet the numbers they need. i say that for the most part for now, we need to stop looking so hard at the number of each race we have in each school and concentrate more on whether the youth growing up now are really gettting the education they need to be more then just half assed adults or the future members of american jails.

i think that from reading what i have on perents involved that it would make for a great way to end segregation if the right standards for it are implemented also. it shouldnt just be about race. i say they should also require that schools should also look at how dumb there students are getting because of how little is really being taught now a days and place students based also on how far behind they really are.

this issue is very complicated and thanks to the assholes who appointed the justices who are yes men who stay on the knees blowing the guys who want their own personnal agenda we can all enjoy the america that is only going to be worse then it ever was.

i personnally think that the justices that are appointed now that are making all these decissions that are wrecking this country should go ahead and take a bite out a speeding bullet and make way for justices who will be looking out for the wholistic bettering of this whole country. but hey, im only one person and what i say isnt always right.

Strelnikov

Strelnikov

Holden, MA
March 2007

JUL 09, 2007 11:26 AM

Subrosa said:

Necia said:
This case isn't dealing with higher education at all. It's dealing with student placement in public school with a goal of maintaining racially balanced public schools--a public high school, in this specific case, although the ruling applies as well to public primary schools. That's the reason people are talking about Brown v. Board of Education with relation to this case--because Brown is the decision that desegregated U.S. public primary and secondary schools. It has nothing to do with post-secondary education.

'Tis often best to read the article prior to commenting.



Moreover, it's not an affirmative action case at all. That's the thing that so many people are missing about this. This case is NOT NOT NOT about giving any one race preference when it comes to admissions at better schools. This case is about the absolute destruction of programs that ensure that people who are going to public school are exposed to different races, different cultures and different values than the ones of their own.

This case is about undoing the practical impact of Brown, not racial preferences.



1. Obviously. But you need a high school diploma to get into college, don't you? Notice I said "hope" of higher education, an education in public schools is certainly part of that hope.

'Tis often best to read the comment prior to responding.

2. That doesn't change my opinion. Those who are open to diversity will always be, and those who are not will only cause problems. I come from a suburban school, so the vast majority of us were white, but there were Muslims, Jews (me), African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, Catholics, Protestants, Wiccans, homosexuals, anything you can imagine. It is certainly a public high school's job to educate students about diversity, but admitting "diverse" people over those who would normally go to that school is not the way to do it. How about having a well-funded foreign language department? Perhaps bringing in speakers on the subject, or just visitors from other states, regions or countries? Perhaps the school could actively participate in exchange programs and actively promote them. Brown v. Board of Education was about cultural exposure, certainly, but moreover, it was about opportunity, and picking and choosing students to force diversity is a structural denial of opportunity.

It is, however, a very difficult decision, because cultural diversity and opportunity are two very important things in this country.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 09, 2007 04:57 PM

Heathen_Dave said:

Subrosa said:
The idea of "equality" is amorphous at best. This decision draws a clean line between de jure segregation and de facto segregation and says that while the former is (rightfully) impermissible, it is actually impermissible to do anything about the latter.



When you say it like this, it doesn't do a good job of promoting your argument. Since so many people choose where they live based on the quality of education in an area, is it really government's place to usurp that decision and move their children to schools that are farther away solely because that school needs more racial diversity?


This is not a case where people are being bussed across county lines or they move into an area where they were unaware there was bussing. This is a case where a democratically elected school board under mandate from the people who voted them in instituted a program in an attempt to lessen the impact of de facto segregation.

This sort of forced diversity is treating symptoms of a deeper issue.


And the solution to that issue is... what? Even if you were to somehow equalize all other socio-economic factors, there is still an inherent benefit of having representatives of different races attend school together.

Cosby knows the score.


Uh... OK.

Necia

Necia

San Francisco, CA
August 2005

JUL 09, 2007 05:33 PM

Strelnikov said:
1. Obviously. But you need a high school diploma to get into college, don't you? Notice I said "hope" of higher education, an education in public schools is certainly part of that hope.

'Tis often best to read the comment prior to responding.

2. That doesn't change my opinion. Those who are open to diversity will always be, and those who are not will only cause problems. I come from a suburban school, so the vast majority of us were white, but there were Muslims, Jews (me), African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, Catholics, Protestants, Wiccans, homosexuals, anything you can imagine. It is certainly a public high school's job to educate students about diversity, but admitting "diverse" people over those who would normally go to that school is not the way to do it. How about having a well-funded foreign language department? Perhaps bringing in speakers on the subject, or just visitors from other states, regions or countries? Perhaps the school could actively participate in exchange programs and actively promote them. Brown v. Board of Education was about cultural exposure, certainly, but moreover, it was about opportunity, and picking and choosing students to force diversity is a structural denial of opportunity.

It is, however, a very difficult decision, because cultural diversity and opportunity are two very important things in this country.



Actually, I did read your comment prior to responding. I still fail to see how most of your comment is relevant to the factual issues of the case or to the constitutional law questions at hand. Yes, you need a high school diploma or its equivalent to get into college. No one's being denied a high school diploma based on race. Therefore, I do not see how your point about higher education relates.

I also don't see how your suggestions affect the issue of maintaining racially integrated public schools. All of those things would be lovely to have in public schools, and ideally, if all public schools were funded as well as those in wealthy suburbs, maybe all public schools would have such things--but those things don't do anything about the issue of maintaining racial integration in our public schools. Your suggestions are fine ones, but I don't see how they really pertain to the facts of the cases at hand, or to the constitutional questions posed by these cases.

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