NEWS: Don't Forget: You're a Symbol.

CULTURE: Don't Forget: You're a Symbol.

This article, by a journalist who, in the course of her work, had to wear a full-on abaya while in Saudi Arabia, ran in the LA Times almost a month ago; but since the topic isn't particularly time-sensitive, and since the specific things I thought worth discussing in it are, alas, perpetually relevant (it seems), what they hey.

The article itself is quite interesting, and worth a click through. But tempting though it is to think "oh, those poor oppressed women," Stack manages to move beyond the easy writeup to draw parallels, to make the lives of women in Saudi Arabia, which I for one find hard to imagine, seem comprehensible--even familiar.

This particular statement really jumped out at me:

Isn't this true of women everywhere, really? In the article, the author feels conspicuous both when she's arriving in Saudi, and has to put the abaya on, *and* when she's leaving, and has to take it off again. Having to put it on shames her; but taking it off makes her feel suddenly conspicuous, aware of the ways that no matter where she is, she's on display, as a woman.

Isn't it true? What you wear, or don't wear, is always significant if you're a woman. Your hair color matters--blonde? You're a ditz! Brunette? How noir! Redhead? Spicy! Your body isn't just to live in--it means something: are you the "kind of girl" who "takes care of herself" or "lets herself go"? Do you wear heels? Those are "fuck me" shoes. Flats? What are you, a feminazi? Are you black? Mm, chocolate. Asian? Either a dragon lady or else you know how to treat a man. Latina? Picante!

And so on, and so on.

Guys get stereotyped, too. But when push comes to shove, they've got a more leeway to ignore it, I think. And men's roles go beyond the surface, there are a few more variables than sexuality and appearance, visibility and invisibility. I've never been to Saudi, buti it still sounded depressingly familiar to me when Stack told the story of having been shooed away from the bank where she was waiting for a friend because the "men could see" her (oh, the horror!). She complained to the friend afterwards:

Aarrgghh.

Bitch_PhD doesn't really think that "hey, things could be worse" is all that comforting.

Depends how much worse things could be, I suppose...

Isn't it true? What you wear, or don't wear, is always significant if you're a woman.

And yet you get angry when we don't notice your new haircut. Women, sheesh.

Please tell me you're not trying to equate being a woman in the States to being a woman in Saudi Arabia.

The burka creates an interesting situation: on the one hand, wearing it prevents a woman from being judged based on her appearance; on the other, she's more greatly judged because she is immediately identifiable as a woman.

Is this the point you were trying to get at?

This article is really interesting - but I'm not sure I buy the notion that men are *less* constrained by symbolic demands than women. In fact, Susan Bordo has written some on the topic and suggested that men have their own kind of roles and appearances they just have to fit into. More broadly, it just feels like a really ad hoc theory. Either we (as human subjects) are caught in a system where visual cues are highly deterministic of our identities and interactions .... or there are other factors. Breaking those down by gender, without a good construct to explain how that happens, sounds sloppy to me.

Islam orders both MEN & women to dress modestly but i think when i see someone walking through my town in an all in one giant black sheet then they are being anything other than conspicous. Given the recent bombings in my country, i feel a little uncomfortable because i have no idea who is under there, regardless of their probable innocent intentions. And if burkas are so good why dont men in saudi etc wear them?

She didn't say that there are necessarily less such symbolic demands assigned to men; she said that men are often more free to ignore them, as they're less often reduced to those symbolic demands or "visual cues" (although the viewing often only seems to cue stereotypes and assumptions in the instances mentioned here) as the sum total of their beings.

But if they're ignoring them - they're effectively outside them. Now, folks can be differentially placed within a symbolic field: so some "symbolic cues" can lend more power than others. Further, some "symbolic cues" might even give you a better position to shape what symbols mean and so on. I just don't buy, prima facie, that some people are visually defined and other people aren't - as a kind of coherent social theory. I mean, it could be - but it just feels ad hoc to me.

To me it seems a little bit more about the safety of conformity, rather than the pressure of stereotypes and symbols. The burkas probably just glide through the minds of everyone - it's a safe way to be recognized as a person, a woman, but without having attention drawn to oneself. It's a way, at least in that society, to keep the attention off you, because nobody wants it every moment of their lives.

It's a feeling I feel most days - to a far lesser degree, I know - when I'm at work. In spite of the sweltering heat, I have yet to wear a tank top to work more than once. It was a weird feeling, knowing that I can be totally fine about being naked on the internet, but in that situation, I felt amazingly uncomfortably dangerously on display, just because it was a bit more apparent that I have big boobs. All the other women in my department wear regular t-shirts, and so I do as well, because standing out that extra bit just doesn't feel right.

It didn't matter what people were thinking about me, what labels they were attributing to me - it was the fact that I had put myself out there.

SignalNoise crystallized my thoughts on the commentary a lot better than I probably would have. It seems incomplete to say the appearances of both men and women are laden with symbols but men, somehow, can ignore or minimize the effects of these symbols. That 'somehow' is pretty glaring in an otherwise well put together commentary.

On the article: I think what's insidious about the burqua is that it reduces all of the possible types of women into just a generic dehumanized woman. The author is absolutely right, the tolerance for Saudi sexism is maddening.

I think SignalNoise actually is right--one of the things that most bothers me about the roles for men is that they all depend, ultimately, on broadcasting confidence and suppressing emotional vulnerability. Women's roles, as I was clumsily trying to say, depend on looks. Men's roles are damaging to guys, absolutely; the thing that struck me about the burqua article is the extent to which women's roles are so *dependent*--the point of looks is being seen (or not), blah blah male gaze.

I actually think that in some ways men are more constrained at this moment in time. At least, women know what we're fighting and there are socially acceptable, even applauded, arenas in which to fight it (along with a lot of irritating backlash). Men fighting the limitations of masculinity don't, yet, really have much support.

+1 Excellent, excellent points.

Try being a bloke and approaching a woman in a bar with that 'my role goes beyond the surface' motif!
She wouldn't be buying it!!!

Seriously tho, everybody judges everybody else by how they look.
Those of us who are a bit more open minded try to move beyond that and give a person a chance, but we live in a fast paced society where people make snap decisions about each other.
This is no different for men; they don't have more leway, they just don't give a shit how they look!
But the sex divide on that is changing over time... thank fuck.

Just thought I'd point out that in Saudi Arabia they don't wear burqas, they wear abayas, which is how the author of the article accurately describes her dress. While they do look very similar, the main difference is that the eyes are not covered with an abaya, like they are with the burqa. A small difference, but when discussing different cultures it seems like such distinctions are important (at least to me). After all, Muslims aren't just one monolithic cultural/religious group, right?

Right, thanks. Correction made.

By what? By whom?

What limitations are these?

This article, while interesting, confirms your complete lack of understanding of what it's like to live as a man in our society, which is oddly hypocritical considering the consistent cry of the general feminist movement that men don't understand or attempt to understand the "plight of women."

It's a two-way street.

Yes, women face unique challenges. So do men. So do tall people, short people, black people, white people, handicapped people, stupid people, smart people, hot people, ugly people, plain people, tattooed people, etc.

You need to realize that many of the phenomena you for whatever reason view as being linked to what's in your panties has, in fact, nothing to do with one's sexual equipment.

Then again, that would involve broadening your perspective and thinking of yourself as an individual and not as a Vagina.

I think it's only significant if you fool yourself into thinking it's significant. Or you value the opinions and judgments of people who are stupid enough to buy into those stereotypes. I can't believe that people (even on a subconscious level) still think like this. I mean, you're an idiotic if you see a blonde girl and the first thing you wonder is if she's stupid or not. Or if the thought even comes into your mind. But if there really are guys and girls out there who are that ignorant, they don't deserve our time or concern. Because obviously they have their own social issues to worry about.

Trying wearing a sun dress and walking down the street. You'll catch on pretty quickly after that.

The limitations are numerous, but because most of the stereotypes for guys are considered to be empowering they're often overlooked.

Men are providers, allowed and furthermore, expected to act stupid, act "manly", be tough, be strong, be well built, be courteous, play sports, like cars, drink until you drop, be the authority figure kids are afraid of, get laid, control the bitch, you know, be a man!!

Failure to do so will result in being considered a nancy.

Of course most of those pseudo values are easier to live up to than the roles that are imposed on women but the fact remains, we have designated roles to play, and trying to change the old practices is a very slow process.

Depends what street I walk down.

Less facetiously, I'm not after anecdotal evidence regarding social expectations of how males (or females) "should" or "should not" behave. I mean, when Bitch_PhD talks about "limitations on masculinity", I don't even know what she means by masculinity in the first place -- and I need to know that before I can comprehend anything about its limitations and their sources.

And, frankly, of all the things that affect me as a male in this world (or at least my little part of it), and they way I try to define my own personal sense of "masculinity", and the things that restrict and "oppress" me, wearing a sundress really isn't high on my list of concerns. Maybe it is for you, but, horses for course, I guess.

We judge people dialy on looks. Maybe its shallow, but it is what we do. Human behavior. I understand that a lot of stress is placed on looking good for women, but I don't think its totally true that men are any freer to ignore appearance than women. Isn't Suicide Girls supposed to be a celebration of human diversity anyhow? Personally, I could have sent my money to Vivid or something. I think the people here are far sexier. Self confidence wins hands down 100% of the time for me.

i don't feel like a good argument was made as to why men have more leeway to ignore their stereotypes. the feminist movement, at least in america, has made it so women can get away with breaking all types of traditional gender roles. this goes for now simple acts of wearing pants or mere working outside of the home to the somewhat more radical acts of being the sexual aggressor in relationships or the breadwinner of their household.

meanwhile, men still can't get away with simple things like wearing women's clothing or being stay-at-home fathers without facing ridicule. they seem to still be stuck in an archaic version of the masculine gender role even as women have been allowed to break free.

Now THERE's a philosophical debate I'd like to get into you with.

=D