Keith Daniels: Dr. Helen Smith

Very interesting article. I remember reading about this murder and about the teenage girls supposed "satanism".

Slightly offtopic, but it seems as if though Dr.Smith is advocating the government and society investing in the mental health system to help prevent these sort of crimes and in the long run save the taxpayers moneys by reducing the number of people incarcerated. I think most people would agree with this strategy, but I wonder how well that strategy would work? Is there any evidence anywhere that when spending on public mental health is slashed crime or violent crimes rise?

Also from the ethical standpoint, what do you do with people like this. On the one hand they murdered a family, so we can't just put them on the strret, but on the other hand these kids seem to me, just from what I've read about them and from this interview, to be victims themselves in some way. Should parent be held accountable? Should there be any sort of leniancy for people who do horrible things partially because horrible things were done to them?

I'm kindof torn on the punishment aspect of this too. They were "adults", but only in a legal sense. Certainly not in a maturity sense. I still feel life in prison is a little harsh for this, I mean, especially for ALL of them. I think the two boys who actually probably did the shooting should have gotten life in prison, and the others maybe 10, 20 years. Unfortunately they all chose to plea bargain and go down together rather than risk one of them being executed.

I do think increased spending on mental health would make a sizeable dent in the prison population. Our prisons are like de facto mental hospitals right now, anyway. A close family member of mine spent 8 years in jail for an armed robbery he commited while suicidally depressed. If he had sought out mental health treatment, which I'm not sure was available to him at the time, things might have turned out differently.

I find it odd that so many people are asking whether they should have been held responsible because they'd been victimized or because they were minors, but nobody is wondering if they should have been responsible because they were insane.

Didn't their lawyer recommend they plead insanity?

Nice interview, Keith.

And a big FUCK YOU to Ronald Reagan and his ilk who disassembled the mental health system, first in California in the 60s and then nationwide in the 80s. You brought us to where we are now.

great job keith

this was a really interesting article

Wow, thanks guys! And here I was thinking "6,500 words, no one's going to read this."

uh... was there a car accident or something? they collided?how come they're in jail? i read about 3/4 of the interview but still couldn't figure out what happened.

Well, she does mention "rampage killers" about 10 times, guns a couple of times, that they all got life in prison, as well as the names of the girls involved if you wanted to look it up, and links to the website... so.....

hope i didn't sound like a jerk. maybe i'm just thick. anyway, i should have said, "it wasn't until i got 3/4 of the way through that i had any idea what happened." the web site's pretty mysterious too. i did figure out that they killed the family, but it would be less confusing if it said so, like in one sentence, up front. i really did think it was a movie about a car accident for a while! really interesting interview though. i'd like to check out that book "when she was bad" too, i've seen it referenced twice in the last couple of days.

Good interview and very, very interesting topic.

2 things I'm not sure about though:

1) Dr Smith sounds like she's promoting the idea that poison is the 'female murder weapon of choice'. But an author by the name of Colin Wilson - whose work comprises almost exclusively of both crime fiction and non-fiction - suggests quite convincingly that this is a myth and has more to do with a passive aggressive personality which is NOT an exclusively female trait. However, I can readily believe the idea that psychological games are used more than physical intimidation by women. But again, this is not exclusively gender limited.

2) I wonder if she is being professional by throwing around cultural stereotypes like Japanese kids prefer to kill themselves as opposed to shooting up the teacher who failed them.

I'm going to have to get a copy of this film somehow.

Interesting article. Is there any actual basis to Dr.Smiths's comment "In Japan there are more suicides than there are homicides in the U.S."? I find this incredibly hard to believe.

There are a few times in the interview that she throws percentages and numbers around off the top of her head, and if I were editing an article from her I'd be looking them up and doublechecking, but remember this was just a conversation, so it might not be 100% accurate as far as figures. I think her theory, as it applies to this particular case, about the lead girl using the boys to do her dirty work for her is pretty sound, though.

I can't remember ever hearing about a school shooting in Japan. Might be a true stereotype, there.



[Edited on Jul 18, 2003 by Keithed]

Let's not forget the legions of "well intentioned" liberals who pushed the view of incarceration and mandatory treatment of the worst of the mentally ill as "fascism" and did everything they could to oppose it.

You know who I'm talking about - the kind of people whose understanding of mental health treatment begins and ends with Oppression Theory 101 and ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST.

Yeah, these people are not crazy or dangerous... they're just "different" and how dare we "judge" them!

(This is not to say that CUCKOO'S NEST is worthless, or that the inhumane treatment of those patients wasn't a real problem. But somewhere along the way, mental patients became yet another group of "victims" in need of "liberation" by the Great White Liberal.)

[Edited on Jul 18, 2003 by BrainFromArous]

I found a few interesting articles relating to this, and the responses.

Homicides and Mental Illness

30,000 suicides per year in Japan, according to this..

15,517 homicides in the U.S. in 2000

SG folks might find this interesting...

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Szasz/myth.htm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060911514/103-7688936-4883010?vi=glance

Thanks Keith.... that is an incredible statistic.

PS: Yes, next time I'll get off my own lazy ass.

I know, man, twice the number! Jeez! They're just offing themselves left and right.

Don't bother getting off your lazy bum, I haven't got off mine in years.

There are also about 30,000 suicides in the United States every year. However, the U.S. population is double(approx) that of Japan.

Is Dr. Smith married? I checked out the site and she is hot! She's smart, she wears glasses, and is gorgeous.

Keith! Hook a brother up man!!

Actually, her husband is none other than the infamous Instapundit. Dem's the breaks, man.

i like most of what this lady says, but i have to take issue that easy access to guns IS a part of why killings happen. its all very well to talk about how changing attitudes have lead to the increase, and i take that point freely. but sure even if the attitudes have changed in society - if the guns were not there to have then people couldnt shoot one another so easily? Jon x

Very interesting interview...

I, however, especially question the idea of an increase in the amount of Residential treatment programs... Personally, I spent a majority of my high school years in and out of some sort of in-patient treatment for clinical depression. A fair amount of that time was spent in "acute care" type places, and it took me attemtping suicide for my parents to send me to a residental treatment center. Interestingly enough, one of the biggest factors in my decision to try to kill myself is that I knew I could no longer "manage my depression" on my own and that the only option left in my parents eyes would be to send me to an RTC... basically I knew that in-patient was shitty and never did a god damn thing to help and in some cases set me further back, and that meant residential treatment would be fucking hell (and it was ten times worse than I had expected). Theres much more to the story, but personally, I've seen first hand how tragically flawed much (of what I know) of our mental health facilities/practices are.

...I could go on forever about this topic, but I just feel like before we start making more residential treatment centers and residential programs and so forth... professionals need to take a look at changing aspects of how they look at/practice psychology and pyschiatry first.

Sorry, a bit off topic and kinda out there, but I had to say something...

Kevin