Israeli SG Members?

sorry to join the party at page 5- just noticed it now, but yes- i'm from Israel. any questions?

I think Spooky is right, insofar as everything up to this point is simply laying the groundwork for a massive region-wide conflict.

Z has a great article on the coming invasion of Iraq. Take a minute to read it. The man who is featured in the article isn't a lefty, but a former UN weapons inspector and a republican. Once a pro-US regime is established in Iraq, then Iran is in a vice (between Pakistan and Iraq) and so are the western arab states (Jordan, Syria, etc are caught between Iraq and Isreal). Things are going to get very ugly over the next few years, and a lot of people are going to die.

No one's hands are clean in this. The Israelis and Palestinians both kill innocents, accidental or not. It makes my stomach hurt to know there are children dying because of the greed and vengeful spirits of their nation's leaders.

It's too bad that there's so much animosity towards each other on this thread. I'm not mad at anyone posting here - I do, however, take issue with people who refuse to give it a second thought. Despite ideological differences, I think we can agree that all of us want peace. We've all formed opinions on how that will best come about. My issue is with the apathetics who could care less about peace and are more concerned about their next Nordstrom or Abercrobie purchase. That makes me ill.

This is hilarious! Spooky, you indirectly comment on me suggesting that you yourself are Jewish without giving a straight answer, ASSUMING that I will judge you on the fact, EVEN though I made no such judgements WHATSOEVER! You probably didnt even bother reading the rest of my post!!

Funnilly enough, you also neglected to comment on any of my other comments! Maybe they were too black and white and you prefer to argue the toss over issues that are hardly pertinant core issues to the discussion. 'My fanatical xenophobic militant is better than your fanatical xenophobic militant'

I suggest that you are too close to this subject to be objective - and it shows in your ignoring anyone that has an alternative view, unless it is a view that strongly contravienes you own, such as Circuits.

Anyway, fuck it. I'm gonna surf on........

Awwwww, I love you too honey and I look forward to it.

Ssshhhhhh.
The 'Sex on the Rag' thread was one click below this one... check it.

So.... What are your thoughts on abortion?

I don't think you quite understand where I'm coming from. Do you know much about the Zapatistas?

A netwar is very different from a conventional war, because it is not the strength of arms that wins. Which is a good thing for the Palestinians, because when it comes to strength of arms, they are going to lose, hands down.

After you've read about the EZLN, and their approach to netwar and networked uprisings, then you'll know where I'm coming from. Until then, I think you have a misunderstanding of what I mean when I refer to a decisive military victory. My definition involves infinitely less bloodshed and stryfe than Spooky's.

Maybe the misunderstanding stems from my echoing of Spooky's word choice in "military." Winning a netwar does not require a military.

If you need links to information about the EZLN, Chiapas, Zapatistas, etc., then let me know. I'll send you some.

But, please learn about what I"m saying before you make the accusation that I am no better than a settler.

Circuit

PS. Where i live has yet to be a "no-nationstate." I am still working on that.

AAUGH!

Circuit

hate to bring it up again, but i somewhat agree with spooky. but with a huge exception. arabs DO have a legit beef with americans. not because we're war-mongering capitalists, but because we're not devout muslims. and isreal does have a beef with palestinians. not because palestinians bomb civlians, although that's a part of it. isreali's beef with palestians is that people in the occupied territory of palestine aren't jewish.

and most everyday average arabs live in the shittiest poverty imaginable. not to apologise for suicide bombing but if you grew up in the most miserable conditions, like many arabs, you'd see the world a lot differently than a middle-class guy from san francisco. suicide bombing would seem like a legitimate option or expression of rage. not that it's right but it's a lot easier to blame someone else, especially people so visible as isrealis and americans, and you have no liberal education to tell you otherwise.

then again, i gots no love for arab regimes where women aren't considered people, they chop off your hands for stealing, they stone homosexuals to death, and mutilate your face for doing drugs to momentarily escape your misery.

but make no mistake. the middle east conflict and all its various conflagrations are old fashioned religious wars shrouded in various cloaks of modernity.

Anyone who does not think we should be tracking down terrorists a putting a bullet in their heads should watch this before making any other statements. I apologize to all of the Mac people. I, too, hate the wmv format but that's how I found this. BTW...this is the complete clip that they did not show on the news here.

I hate to bring this back up, but I completely disagree. This is a modern conflict with fundamentalists on both sides (jewish and moslem, and even some christian) who have co-opted the whole thing to suit their agenda.

Whether it's the far-right jewish fundamentalists who dream of a "greater Israel", and push for the "relocation" of the Palestinians, or whether it's Hamas and Islamic Jihad, who exploit a national liberation struggle for the purposes of anti-semitism.

I just talked to my girlfriend in Palestine. She says the Intifada is dead. If you think the Palestinians support the suicide bombers so much, then why do they feel so hopeless? Intifadas are characterized by people in the streets, throwing stones, burning national ID cards, and doing other symbolic and direct actions.

Nobody is in the streets anymore. The hard-right groups have completely co-opted the Intifada, and killed it. Everybody, she says, seems to be bitter and hopeless.

How that translates into widespread support for suicide bombing, I don't know.

Circuit

P.S. Spooky, you said before that nobody would give up land that they annexed in a war where they were not the aggressor. Actually, annexing land that was gained through military conflict is a violation of the Geneva convention.

Israel has given back the Sinai to Egypt. Israel has given back the Golan (to its enemy who shells them from those very hills). Israel would be just fine giving the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians if it meant all this shit would stop. But the majority don't believe that the Palestinian majority can curb their fundamentalists or WON'T control them [i.e. PA].

This speaks to the rhetoric issue within Israel and the Jewish community I was speaking about a bit earlier... a good read.

so maybe im just writing these to myslef...so this is the last thing....

look at this...actually very interesting in my opinion- it was from a survey the government and Peace Now did in the West Bank.

Americans for Peace Now: Middle East Peace Report
Vol. 4, Issue 3
July 29, 2002

New Peace Now Survey Shows Settlers Would Leave Quietly: According to a new and extensive survey from the Israeli Peace Now movement, more than two-thirds (68%) of settlers recognize the right of Israel’s democratic institutions to evacuate the settlements and would comply with such a decision without a fight. Another 26% said they would ultimately comply with such a decision, but would first try to combat it by legal means. Only 6 percent said they would also fight the decision by illegal methods, while a mere 2% (some 4,000 people) said they would wage an armed struggle against such a move. The survey, conducted between April and July 2002, included interviews with a representative sample of 3,200 families from 127 settlements, while another 800 families inside the Green Line were questioned as a control group. The margin of error was 2%. The survey also found that should settlements be evacuated, 59% of settlers think they should receive monetary compensation, while some 10% would prefer new housing inside Israel, and 23% prefer housing in another settlement. Just 9% would reject any solution. Further, some 77% of settlers chose their homes primarily due to reasons of quality of life. Only 20% cited religious reasons and just 3% cited security reasons for living in the occupied territories. Peace Now concluded that “most of the settlers are not an obstacle to peace, as their positions are realistic and pragmatic, and in the event of an agreement, most of them are willing to be evacuated.” The Settlers Council reacted angrily to the study and questioned its accuracy, citing data showing that, since September 2000, the settler population has grown 7.7%. However, that argument was undercut when the Interior Ministry released new numbers on the same day showing that since June 2001, the settler population has grown just 5.21%, with most of the increase due to natural growth. The rate of internal migration to the settlements was almost negligible over the last year. (Ha’aretz, 7/25/02)

Free membership!

good lord, man. let the dead rest in peace.

dude. what the fuck?

This thread is from 2002. 2002!

Ye gods, man, what have you done?!