Because of me, someone will be in jail for 25 years minimum

I recently had the honor <cough> of serving on a jury in the great state of California. Argh!

Anyways the case is over so I can talk about it. Basically this guy stole some woman's purse, punched her, did a hit and run and then unsuccessfully tried to rob a donut shop with a knife.

I was the holdout on one of the counts but eventually I agreed that he was guilty and the result was guilty on 5 charges plus special circumstances (knife/gun).

As I was walking to the elevator in the courtroom I asked the defense attorney if that was his 3rd strike. he said yes. So this means this guy has a MINIMUM of 25 years in jail coming to him. That's not including whatever he is sentenced to for the crime.

While I do agree that he was guilty, I'm upset because I don't think he's 25 years guilty and I feel fucking awful about it. I asked the judge if we could make a jury reccomendation but she said no.

Any thoughts on this?

On a side note, I once heard of some guy getting his 3rd strike from shoplifting. NONE of his 3 strikes were violent crimes too.

ouch
responsibility is a bitch

The third strike legislation was never well written or fulley thought through. A lot of people get screwed like this.

well do you know what this guy did previously?
also i think the fact that he violently held up a donut shop (hahahahahah excuse my laughter) with a knife, means he could have caused harm to anyone working there or in the shop at the time. he hit the woman which proves he is violent. and with that meaning what will he do next. sure people make mistakes but he obviously made a huge list of mistakes, which then resulted in him being punished. unless hes delusional he knew it was against the law, and wrong.

granted i wouldnt want to go to jail for any length of time let alone 25 years, but he made the decision to commit those crimes. id hate to be on a jury.

Well of course he deserves some sort of punishment. but 25 years?!? minimum? And yes he was a flaming idiot - he wasn't successful with the donut shop because he couldn't fit through the window haha.

hey On a side note I have something for ya. Do you think its more humane to give someone say 10 years for a non-violent burglary or chop off one of his hands? Thing about it for a minute though, don't just react. This is a typical sentence in the US vs. many muslim countries.

The legal system in California is in bad shape. And its not your fault. So don't feel bad.

If this event has changed you, do something about it at election time. See if there are any efforts to get rid of or rewrite the 3 strikes law in California.

A lot of things that are considered "violent" in the California strike laws are ot violent either.

It is good to hear you have feeling about this issue. A lot of people get there lives destroyed by this. A real loose loose situation.

Its not just Cali, dude. The whole penal system is just backwards. Human beings become acclimated to the environment that they are put in. So what do we do with criminals?? Put them in an environment where they are surrounded by nothing but the very criminal element we are holding them responsible for exhibiting in the first place.

And also, how old was this person?? If they are under 25, they are likely facing the fact that they got a substandard education. . . .which leads to frustration and desperation. Just a thought. . .

:edit: Sneaky Polly cut me off.

[Edited on Apr 29, 2003 by Anger]

Anger said:
Its not just Cali, dude. The whole penal system is just backwards.


I'm not sure what his past crimes were, obviously they don't disclose that info. But he was probably in his mid 30s which makes me feel a little better. He wasn't some stupid 20 year old who hasn't learned any better yet.

It's just that it's unfair to give a blanket sentence for a crime regardless of the circumstances and severity of the crime. I don't see how someone can go to jail for 25+ years for 3 crimes - say theft, a robbery ending with a punch, and another theft yet someone can get 8 years for 1 crime - rape or 2nd degree murder. Anyone here think this guy committed something worse than rape? What the fuck is up with that? And the judge has NO way to change the sentence either, even with special circumstances.

i completely understand what goes on in many muslim countries. i never said it was right or any such thing. and im not about to discuss cutting off someone hands compaired to 10 years in prision.

i do not agree that someone being pissed off about a shoddy education has the right to go out and commit crimes because theyre upset over it. sure lots of people get shoddy educations, or have fucked up lives. doesnt mean we all go out robbing places and punching women.
i didnt think theyd disclose what he had done before to the jury, but i thought maybe you had found out yourself seeing as how you seem upset over this.

i totally agree it pisses me off more than anything that someone who smoked pot can get more time in jail than someone who rapes women, or beats someone to death. i dont agree with the penile system.

also anyone who can come up with a better system than putting criminals in a building together best voice it....what do you want to do with them just let them hang around civilized people...well they were before that wasnt working obviously.

I would not feel bad about this. You did not go out and commit any of these crimes.

If someone goes out and breaks the law repeatedly then the person needs to realize the law is not going to be any gentler as they go along. Criminals shoulds realize they will be punished if they break the law and are found guility.

This guy had two other chances not to break the law. He was a dumbass and broke the law...again...and again.

Well, not to say that the Judicial system in the country isn't severly flawed, but frankly he got what he deserved. If he didn't learn from the first and second offense, how can we expect him to learn from another slap on the wrist?

The basic idea is that the law sets out standards. Anyone can find out the penalty for a crime. If he commited the crimes knowingly, then why wouldn't he deserve 25 years? The point of our laws are so that people will take responsibility for their own actions, not to mention they are also there to protect others. He attempted to threaten someone with a knife. He deserves his sentance if for no other reason than that. Sorry, I just feel very strongly about multiple offenders, especially when violence is involved.

i tend to look at it this way...

let's say we all live in a small community of about 200 people and there is someone in our community that is constantly committing crimes, especially violent ones, no matter what the punishment is. i want the fucker gone.

A year ago--wow, almost to the day--I served on a jury in a trial on something like 5 charges: assault, fleeing from the scene, resisting arrest, etc. It was the sordid narrative of a January night.

The accused's girlfriend, a pitiful woman of middle-age fighting against the effects of aging without the benefit of taste, was doing her best to paint a picture of the accused as a saint. But of course there were holes in the story. But they weren't "throw him in the slammer" holes, just inconsistencies and improbabilities. The charge of assault was against her, by the way. I was getting more worried with each day we heard testimony. I just wasn't ready to send the guy to jail. He seemed like a jerk, and his girlfriend was a dope, but I wasn't certain a truly punishable crime had been committed.

It was also odd being the college boy on the jury, especially as a student of literature. I mean, I'd been trained to read narratives, to evaluate what is said, and to look for signs of things not said expressed through tone, diction, etc. I knew something was going unsaid, but a jury doesn't ask questions, it evaluates "the facts". I guess it's like reading poetry or fiction, but you know a book can't tell you more--when there are people right in front of you hiding something, it couldn't be less like reading.

Anyway, just as we were coming down to the wire, the day that would have probably been the last before we entered deliberation, we were in the jury room after hearing that the defendant had worked as an informer for the police and we were all reeling from this radical twist. We were summoned back to the courtroom and no sooner were we seated than we were told the defendant had changed his plea to guilty. The judge told us later that he had a mile-long criminal record, and it's that that had been hidden from us because he, not his history, was on trial. And yet it was his history that filled in all the holes in the story. Now he was off to jail, and we were thanked for our services.

I still don't know what kind of nerve I would have had if it was up to me to find him guilty or innocent. He did bad things, he broke the law. But god, jail? Has jail ever made anyone less criminal? But that wasn't the question being asked. In light of the evidence presented, which crimes did he break?--that was all that was asked. The system would take care of the rest.

I haven't thought about Paul, the defendant since then. Well, until now. I'm living in Kingston now, city of many prisons, 3 hours west of where I heard the trial. This is a town of institutions: university, penal, miltary. I wonder if he's here. I haven't thought about that before.

This all sounds so "bleeding heart", and that's not what I'm trying to convey. My own brother's done things that could have landed him in jail. I don't know. I'm going to listen to Springsteen's "Nebraska". No answers, just bothersome questions. Thanks for sharing, Lornemir.

[Edited on Apr 29, 2003 by dogslife]

this case is kinda borderline, but can't you "strike out" with any three felonies? i just read about a guy who got his third strike for stealing children's videos from Kmart. because they were worth over a certain threshold ($153 in this case), i guess it was considered a felony and he got 50 years. 50 years for BARNEY! i dunno, it seems to me that when the sentence does not fit the crime, we're in the "cruel and unusual" territory here. the supreme court recently upheld the constitutionality of "three strikes" (5-4), but i'm just not feeling it.

hmm, bullets are cheaper than prison.
At least the guy has the right to due process.

he runs up to a woman..punches her in the face.steals her purse.and then tries to hold up a shop with a knife?...Shooting him on sight would have saved alot of money,but that's just my FACIST (hahahah) opine...Are we to assume that his previous two strikes were also for assault with a deadly weapon, assault and battery , robbery,attempted robbery,...as the latest?...Fuck that... get pieces of shit like that off the street...did anyone ask the lady who got punched and robbed how she feels..?...

Id feel guilty… He doesn’t sound like the best guy but 25 years! That’s half a lifetime. Perhaps on the third strike instead of locking the person up forever the system should be reevaluated. If 2 previous jails terms didn’t work, why would anyone think more jail is going to solve anything

I personally don’t think I could vote not guilty for anything but the most violent crimes and from your description I don’t think he would qualify. Punching someone is hardly worth 25 years in jail. If everyone were held to that standard most of us wouldn’t make it out of high school, and it sounds like he didn’t hurt anyone at the store.

Its just my guess but I think there are probably other issues in this guys life that are driving him to do these things, and its my guess that if these issues were addressed he would probably be fine. Jail though I don’t think is the answer.

There was also a case in CA where some guy got a huge sentence for stealing food (because he was starving) … hardly a crime.. what a dumb law..

Its to late now.. but if you or anyone else here ever serves you should know you under no legal obligation to vote guilty even if you believe the person committed the crime. If you believe that the law is unjust or that the punishment is unjust you are within your rights to vote not guilty and hang the curry.

'3 strikes and you're out' is the unfortunate result of the fascist regime that US citizens have signed up for...

YOU ARE FREE TO THINK AS WE TELL YOU

okay, so because two jail terms maybe didnt solve anything then well screw a third right? cuz it just wont fix anything? thats just idiotic. thats like telling a kid not to do something twice but they go and do it again and you just say "ah well they didnt listen the first two times, might as well let them go about it"

he might not have served time for those, he might have served a very short period of time. its not like theyre rehablitating anyone in prisons in 2 months that they come out model citizens....thats absolult stupidity to think that way. if theyve made up their mind they dont give a fuck, then they probably dont give a fuck theyre in jail. so you know what fuck em. have fun being behind bars because you obviously had your chance to live with the rest of the world. its not like he got caught speeding or something, he commited a serious crime.

also i didnt sign up for anything. thanks.

hey, look everyone.....we're fascists Very convincing argument WaTed (ho-hum)


The 3rd Strike legislation is poor legislation. It was the result of knee jerk reaction politics. The people wanted to get togher on crime, so the legislators answered with 3rd Strike laws. While they sound neato to the layman......all 3rd strike laws do it muck up the legal system with 3rd rate criminals.

The Plea Bargaining system allows for streamlining the legal system. It's rather pointless to try a guy for 7 or 8 burglaries, 3 counts of evading, 4 counts of possession of a weapon for unlawful porposes, 2 counts of resisting arrest if you can get him to just cop to 4 burglaries and 2 weapons charges.....he's still gonna do time and it'll tie up the court system less.

What the 3rd strike laws do is eliminate a great portion of the plea bargaining system. If you've done time for 2 separate burglary convictions....and you get picked up again.....you're not gonna plea because that's an automatic 25 years. You're gonna go to trial becaus it's your only chance....so there you are....having a trial for some stupid shit that could have been plea bargained.

there's somethin about takin part in illegal activities...
don't do the crime if ya can't do the time...

(that is not to say there are certain facets of our justice system that i find to be a joke)....
but this mofo was robbing people? dude deserved what was coming to him....he's also got karma to deal with that comes back when you least expect it and is heavier than any toll one pays in lock up.

can the jury know whether or not it would be his third strike?

the title of this thread is where i disagree. it's not because of you that this person will be in jail for 25 years. it's because of what this person chose to do. this person knew the law (whether it's right or wrong) and chose to do what they did. it's not your fault. it's okay to feel bad for them, but they brought this upon themselves and it's not right for you to accept any part of the blame.