Trevallion said:
I've never seen someone in the full throes of alcoholism refer to their condition as a disease. Generally only people that are attempting recovery refer to alcoholism as a disease, and with good reason.
Exactly. Those who I know of (and my personal/anecdotal of this is limited, I admit) who talk of addiction are a disease are typically the ones trying to deal with it. Referring it as a disease does not give them a cop-out from personal responsibility, it gives them something to focus on in terms of doing battle.
That's all separate from the medical classification issue. It's simply about claims and assertions that the word "disease" implies an attempt to evade responsibility.
TheFuckOffKid said:
I think this is a good place to investigate the "what women get out of porn" question, noting that it cannot always be easily divorced from the issue of what guys get out of it.
P'raps I'll bring it up then. I'm still not done with the pregnant women thing, though, everyone will be happy to know.
Just a suggestion -- it might be useful to think what you can add to the discourse here. It's a site full of nude pictures (mostly, but not entirely, nude female pictures), and a fairly open attitude to sex and sexuality, and apparently that's set the cat among your pigeons amongst your readers. Talking about it at your blog rather than opening up a discussion in here seems like doing a judgemental anthropological study without actually talking to the villagers whose behaviour you are about to judge.
(Your question on your blog about whether it's "theoretically possible" to have women-friendly porn is what I'm getting at. I'd put it that there's no "theory" that can decide this a priori, just one's ideological preconceptions. Alternatively, you could, y'know, ask some women. You'll find there's a few here. That requires you not presuming you're smarter than they are, PhD regardless. See below.)
Well, obviously folks here aren't going to agree with Twisty. [snip]
I think she's smart and funny and the entire *point* of her blog is to explain radical feminism. I know a lot of people fail to understand what she's saying--e.g., not "Real Feminists Never Suck Cock" but rather, "In a Sexist Society, All Sex is Inevitably Tainted by Sexism." Which seems a self-evident premise to me. The question of what one chooses to *do* about one's social embeddedness isn't what she's on about; she's just saying, have some intellectual honesty.
I've been exposed to well and truly enough radical feminism to not be at high risk of misunderstanding Twisty, nor of needing her to keep me intellectually honest.
Let me give you an alternative interpretation of the statement "In a Sexist Society, All Sex is Inevitably Tainted by Sexism": rather than being "self-evident", it's a moveable feast that allows the asserter to judge whoever's behaviour they don't approve of, but at least if it's someone they don't want to personally disapprove of (like, say, a woman going to a strip club), you can always, as her blog's title suggests, blame the patriarchy, right? The unwitting female strip club patron's mind has been addled by the oppressive sexist/capitalist/imperialist value system, and so she's not the problem, so much as the unwitting victim of the prevailing patriarchal structure. Right?
Here Twisty's positively nonplussed:
I am acquainted with dudes who swan around East St. Louis strip clubs on double-dates, with their wives.
Oh my fucking god. Really? With their wives?
That evil patriarchy!
I wonder what she'd make of this. And by that, I mean, whether Twisty would actually take it as an interesting data point ("Hmm, something interesting to consider" or whether it'd be just another example of a woman behaving impurely in an impure (sexist) world. That old patriarchal programming just seeps on in, doesn't it.
Y'know, I get that Twisty's blog is about "explaining radical feminism" but, uh, so what? If I pointed you to someone saying "They're smart and funny and the point of their blog is to explain intelligent design", I shouldn't be awfully surprised or unhappy when you shrug your shoulders and turn away.
Heh. I might as easily say that y'all have obviously anticipated some of *your* conclusions. However, we'll leave that debate 'til I tackle the subject; god knows this thread's got enough arguments in it already.
Well, I don't want to speak for any other member of this site, but I've read my Andrea Dworkin. Hell, I even wrote an obituary for her elsewhere on this site.
TheFuckOffKid said:
I read lots of Dworkin, years ago. I've listed elsewhere her book on pornography as one of my five essential pieces of feminist reading that everyone interested in feminism should read.
That said, she was a brilliant person, and an emotional train wreck, who turned both of those attributes into a career that had a hell of an impact.
Consider that as one of the first, and certainly one of the most significant and influential, feminist theorists on sex, she went through her later life in an asexual relationship with a gay man. The above quote ("But I'm not saying that sex must be rape...sex must not put women in a subordinate position.") soft-soaps her impact. It wasn't just women posing nude, doing porn, or engaging in sex work who felt the wrath of her and her followers. It was women who liked power play in sex, women who liked to be submissive (or dominant!), women for whom sex was vibrant, celebratory and FUN, not a political activity that violated the feminist code if it wasn't completely vanilla.
Dworkin fought for women the way Mother Teresa fought for the poor. Namely, Mother Teresa didn't want to save lives or reduce suffering so much as she wanted to save souls. Andrea didn't so much want to enable women to engage in the pursuit of happiness on equal terms to men, as she wanted (in many cases) to save women from themselves. She couldn't save Susie Bright from herself, so she vented her spleen instead, aiming venom and vitriol at Susie and her ilk.
There wasn't an ounce of detachment, let alone celebration, in Andrea's worldview when it came to sex and the libido. She had neither the arm's length view of the scholar, nor the enthusiasm of the excited participant, on matters carnal. For most of us, sex is (like most things) a yin/yang affair. It's fucking great when the fucking is great, but other times it's dull, banal, emotionally draining, or (at its worst) violent and scary and scarring. But Andrea had no yang to her yin. For her, it was about women being exploited - pretty much end of story. There were no organic or fluid power dynamics in sex (or gender relations generally) as far as Andrea was concerned - in her eyes, if a woman was being fucked, chances are she was being fucked over.
Andrea went where few had gone before. Certainly she was one of the first feminists to seriously attempt theorizing about men, one of feminisms great intellectual lacunae (as it was then, it still is now). Of course, as with her obvious predecessor in this attempt, Valerie Solanas, Dworkin's take on men was viciously one-sided, and one of her lasting legacies is that feminism in its intellectual form remains woefully inept when it comes to actually thinking about men, as opposed to simply positioning them politically.
I think Andrea had to happen. If Andrea hadn't been born, someone would have invented her. (The radical feminists or the radical right, take your pick.) Feminists of all ages need to read Dworkin, confront her ideas, deal with her challenges. But my personal take on it is that I can't for the life of me see why feminists haven't en masse roundly rejected her worldview and started again, knowing that Dworkin was a product of her time. Feminism remains hobbled by her legacy.
Vestril said:
This is all completely off topic, but I like the discussion
You may be surprised to learn that in a meta-sense, it's not as off-topic as it seems.
Vestril said:
I've already stated that I don't think I have "free will," so I can't possibly be acting with it. The ability to make choices is not the same as having free will.
This may be enough to clarify the issue, which isn't an error of logic, it seems, so much as a result of a choice of definitions. If the ability to make choices is not defined as equivalent to (or at least directly related to) "free will" then we can claim free will as an impossibility (without really being able to prove it either way).
I point out that this wasn't completely off-topic for reasons that might be semi-clear from some comments I made up above -- a dominant theme from 1960s/70s feminism that still lingers is the idea that "free will" is a cultural construction. (So, if a girl poses nude for this site, she can't claim to have made a free choice so much as she is taking an action conditional on the cultural/social/political influences that have shaped her thinking and her values. Feminists like Twisty Faster (linked to in previous post) are smarter than everyone else, in the sense that they claim to know when behaviour is feminist or not.)
TheFuckOffKid said:
Here Twisty's positively nonplussed:
I am acquainted with dudes who swan around East St. Louis strip clubs on double-dates, with their wives.
Oh my fucking god. Really? With their wives?
That evil patriarchy!
I wonder what she'd make of this. And by that, I mean, whether Twisty would actually take it as an interesting data point ("Hmm, something interesting to consider") or whether it'd be just another example of a woman behaving impurely in an impure (sexist) world. That old patriarchal programming just seeps on in, doesn't it.
I know what you're saying exactly, and while I've yet to see Twisty say a single thing that makes me want to read her again, this isn't my biggest complaint. What I truly hate is how people like Twisty whine nonstop about female strippers and porn that appeals to men, yet you know her and her amen choir probably go to male strip shows, have their own naked men porn, etc, etc. The hypocrisy is what makes me want to puke.
TheFuckOffKid
NEWSWIRE
Australia
FEB 24, 2007 01:20 AM