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Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

FEB 20, 2007 09:41 AM



Why do I care about the rights of pregnant meth users? Let's start small.

For most "respectable" women, the main thing you'll be told when you get pregnant is "don't drink alcohol." In fact, let's grab a beer out of the fridge and look at what the warning label says:

Government Warning (1) According to the Surgeon General, women should not drink alcoholic beverages during pregnancy because of the risk of birth defects. (2) Consumption of alcoholic beverages impairs your ability to drive a car or operate machinery, and may cause health problems.


Everyone who drinks has seen these warnings, right? So we all know — and when you're pregnant, your doctor will remind you — that pregnant women shouldn't drink.

Notice, in fact, that while pregnant women "should not" drink, non-pregnant women — and men — aren't told what they should, or shouldn't do. They're given the facts — drinking "impairs your ability to drive" and "may cause health problems" — and expected to make their own, informed, decisions. Pregnant women, on the other hand, are told directly what they should do.
There are two implications here: first, that pregnant women are less able than men or non-pregnant women to think for themselves; and second, that alcohol is more dangerous for pregnant women (or their fetuses) than it is for "normal" people.

The first implication — that pregnant women can't think for themselves — is obviously stupid and insulting. If you're like me, when someone tells you what to do, you're inclined to tell them to fuck off. But before we tell the "don't drink while pregnant" crowd to fuck off, let's see what the problems with drinking while pregnant actually are — after all, it's a Big Deal, this pregnancy thing, and we wouldn't want to let knee-jerk attitudes about being grownups (after all, we're pregnant! How much more grownup can you get?) affect our judgment.

So let's move on to the second implication. Is alcohol, in fact, more dangerous for pregnant women than it is for everyone else? To find out, I'm consulting Conceiving Risk, Bearing Responsibility: Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and the Diagnosis of Moral Disorder. I stole the title of this post from the book, by the way. According to the author, Elizabeth Armstrong,

The fact is we simply do not know. . . . while ample evidence indicates that heavy prenatal alcohol exposure can be tetrogenic (that is, cause birth defects) in some pregnancies, . . . the number of fetuses exposed and affected is small.

First, we know that FAS is not an "equal opportunity" birth defect. Fetal alcohol syndrome is highly correlated with smoking, poverty, malnutrition, high parity, and advanced maternal age.
[...]
Second, despite evidence to suggest that FAS may have a genetic component, there has been surprisingly little research. . . . One (kind of evidence) is from studies of twins: the medical literature has reported cases of franternal twins, in which one twin is affected with FAS and the other is not.
[...]
Third, even among women who are alcoholics, only a small number have babies who are affected. . . . In fact, only about 5 percent of children born to alcoholic women have FAS.


Five percent of children born to alcoholics. That ain't much. I think it is fair to say, without dismissing the importance of FAS, that most "normal" women — the kind of women who read alcohol warning labels, who see doctors during pregnancy, who are inclined to think about what they eat and drink — do not have much to worry about. Alcoholics, by and large, don't read warning labels and are far less likely than most of us to get decent prenatal care (which may, in and of itself, be a big part of the problem). If you care about FAS, your primary concern should be helping pregnant alcoholics get prenatal care, which includes treatment for their alcoholism.

Finally, let's don't forget that most women don't realize they're pregnant for a month or two. By which point, if you've been drinking, you've probably already done the majority of whatever damage you're going to do. IME, that ain't much; I went out drinking with my friends every weekend for two months before I realized I was knocked up, and as far as I and my kid's teachers can tell, he's smarter than most of the other kids on the playground. God knows, at 10 lbs 1 oz, he didn't have low birthweight (supposedly one of the markers of FAS). He's reading at grade level, his math is well above grade level, and he can tell you how DNA works, what a metaphor is, and how to build a working rocket.

So yeah. I'm inclined to say that drinking during pregnancy — by which I mean, "drinking during pregnancy by women who aren't alcoholics" — is okay. I'm inclined to think that people who claim that there are "tons" of kids with FAS in public schools are talking out their asses. I'm inclined to think that people who give you the fisheye when you order a cocktail in your seventh month are judgmental assholes. And I'm inclined to think that a lot of the hype around women's "responsibility" not to drink while pregnant is a big, guilt-tripping load of bullshit.

Bitch_PhD likes a good fight, and thinks people who pass judgment on pregnant women need to be smacked.

apesamongus

apesamongus

Atlanta, GA
July 2002

FEB 20, 2007 11:36 AM

Bitch_PhD said:
Notice, in fact, that while pregnant women "should not" drink, non-pregnant women--and men--aren't told what they should, or shouldn't do. They're given the facts--drinking "impairs your ability to drive" and "may cause health problems"--and expected to make their own, informed, decisions. Pregnant women, on the other hand, are told directly what they should do.


You know, I'm fairly certain I have been told repeatedly - not as a suggestion - that I should not drink and drive. In fact, I think there are people waiting to grab me and stick me in a little concrete room for several hours (minimum) if I try to do so. So, your implication that you only get told what to do if you're a pregnant woman is complete and utter bullshit. The difference between "don't drink if you're pregnant" and "drinking can cause health problems" has nothing to do with some hidden agenda to victimize pregnant women and everything to do with crossing that line between things that affect just yourself and things that affect others. And we damn well better tell people what to do when their actions affect others, because generally people are selfish pricks.

DeadBilly

DeadBilly

Burnt Cabins, PA
February 2004

FEB 20, 2007 11:41 AM

Yes, of course, it's all a huge conspiracy to keep party girls down.

For the record, I see a huge difference between a woman who doesn't know she's pregnant and drinks or smokes, and one who knowingly "orders a cocktail in her 7th month."

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

FEB 20, 2007 11:42 AM

Every friend of mine who has been pregnant has had their doctor tell them that having the occasional glass of wine or beer isn't going to cause any damage. Some have had drinks, some haven't. All children are doing fine.

Snottlebocket

Snottlebocket

Netherlands
March 2004

FEB 20, 2007 11:45 AM


The first implication _ that pregnant women can't think for themselves _ is obviously stupid and insulting. If you're like me, when someone tells you what to do, you're inclined to tell them to fuck off.



I think it's more accurate to say that rather a lot of people are ignorant idiots which is fine as long as they're just harming themselfs.
But when they get pregnant it's worthwhile to at least give them a few (probably futile) pointers about the many stupid things people are inclined to do.

Not to mention that five percent sounds like a fairly significant amount to me. (give me 5 percent of your life savings and say "that ain't much")

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

FEB 20, 2007 11:46 AM

I see a huge difference between a woman who doesn't know she's pregnant and drinks or smokes, and one who knowingly "orders a cocktail in her 7th month."

Really? Because sometimes those are the same woman. Like, for instance, me.

SnakePlissken

SnakePlissken

Corvallis, OR
December 2002

FEB 20, 2007 11:49 AM

apesamongus said:
The difference between "don't drink if you're pregnant" and "drinking can cause health problems" has nothing to do with some hidden agenda to victimize pregnant women and everything to do with crossing that line between things that affect just yourself and things that affect others. And we damn well better tell people what to do when their actions affect others, because generally people are selfish pricks.



This is the correct answer.

DeadBilly

DeadBilly

Burnt Cabins, PA
February 2004

FEB 20, 2007 11:49 AM

Bitch_PhD said:
I see a huge difference between a woman who doesn't know she's pregnant and drinks or smokes, and one who knowingly "orders a cocktail in her 7th month."

Really? Because sometimes those are the same woman. Like, for instance, me.



Well, I should point out they stop after they realize they're pregnant.

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

FEB 20, 2007 11:49 AM

Not to mention that five percent sounds like a fairly significant amount to me. (give me 5 percent of your life savings and say "that ain't much")

Learn to read: 5 percent of the children of alcoholics. Not 5 percent of all newborns.

Snottlebocket

Snottlebocket

Netherlands
March 2004

FEB 20, 2007 11:53 AM

Bitch_PhD said:
Not to mention that five percent sounds like a fairly significant amount to me. (give me 5 percent of your life savings and say "that ain't much")

Learn to read: 5 percent of the children of alcoholics. Not 5 percent of all newborns.



I did read, and that still sounds significant to me. Or would you say it's only significant if it affects the majority of all children by alcoholics?

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

FEB 20, 2007 11:53 AM

KilledByLenore said:
For the record, I see a huge difference between a woman who doesn't know she's pregnant and drinks or smokes, and one who knowingly "orders a cocktail in her 7th month."


There is no evidence to show that a drink in the 7th month causes any harm. Its done in France all the time (and more and more in the states). In France, in fact, they tell women not to eat raw vegetables.

unravled

unravled

Portland, OR
August 2003

FEB 20, 2007 11:57 AM

DRINKING TOO MUCH WATER CAN KILL YOU, FYI.

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

FEB 20, 2007 11:57 AM

Snottlebocket said:

Bitch_PhD said:
Not to mention that five percent sounds like a fairly significant amount to me. (give me 5 percent of your life savings and say "that ain't much")

Learn to read: 5 percent of the children of alcoholics. Not 5 percent of all newborns.



I did read, and that still sounds significant to me. Or would you say it's only significant if it affects the majority of all children by alcoholics?


No, genius. If FAS only affects 5% of babies born to alcoholics, then what do you think the "significant amount" would be of babies born to women who have one drink, or two, or a couple a week?

lilcupcake

lilcupcake

Kitchener, ON
June 2006

FEB 20, 2007 11:57 AM

apesamongus said:

Bitch_PhD said:
Notice, in fact, that while pregnant women "should not" drink, non-pregnant women--and men--aren't told what they should, or shouldn't do. They're given the facts--drinking "impairs your ability to drive" and "may cause health problems"--and expected to make their own, informed, decisions. Pregnant women, on the other hand, are told directly what they should do.


You know, I'm fairly certain I have been told repeatedly - not as a suggestion - that I should not drink and drive. In fact, I think there are people waiting to grab me and stick me in a little concrete room for several hours (minimum) if I try to do so. So, your implication that you only get told what to do if you're a pregnant woman is complete and utter bullshit. The difference between "don't drink if you're pregnant" and "drinking can cause health problems" has nothing to do with some hidden agenda to victimize pregnant women and everything to do with crossing that line between things that affect just yourself and things that affect others. And we damn well better tell people what to do when their actions affect others, because generally people are selfish pricks.



+1

RileyStClair

RileyStClair

Los Angeles, CA
September 2006

FEB 20, 2007 11:59 AM

i just don't see why it's so hard to stop drinking for a few months out of one's life. i certainly don't think it should be legislated (as per the previous "meth babies" article), but i do think that a pregnant woman who carries a child to term has a duty to not engage in behaviors that present a risk of harm to the fetus, when such behaviors are easily foregone during pregnancy.

SnakePlissken

SnakePlissken

Corvallis, OR
December 2002

FEB 20, 2007 12:04 PM

unravled said:
DRINKING TOO MUCH WATER CAN KILL YOU, FYI.



But it only kills a very small number of people, so I'm going to go ahead and polish off this 5 gallon jug of Evian. Because, y'know, the percentages are small which means it'll only happen to "that other guy".

craftygrrl

craftygrrl

Bellingham, WA
July 2006

FEB 20, 2007 12:04 PM

apesamongus said:

Bitch_PhD said:
Notice, in fact, that while pregnant women "should not" drink, non-pregnant women--and men--aren't told what they should, or shouldn't do. They're given the facts--drinking "impairs your ability to drive" and "may cause health problems"--and expected to make their own, informed, decisions. Pregnant women, on the other hand, are told directly what they should do.


You know, I'm fairly certain I have been told repeatedly - not as a suggestion - that I should not drink and drive. In fact, I think there are people waiting to grab me and stick me in a little concrete room for several hours (minimum) if I try to do so. So, your implication that you only get told what to do if you're a pregnant woman is complete and utter bullshit. The difference between "don't drink if you're pregnant" and "drinking can cause health problems" has nothing to do with some hidden agenda to victimize pregnant women and everything to do with crossing that line between things that affect just yourself and things that affect others. And we damn well better tell people what to do when their actions affect others, because generally people are selfish pricks.




You took the words right out of my mouth.

unravled

unravled

Portland, OR
August 2003

FEB 20, 2007 12:06 PM

SnakePlissken said:

unravled said:
DRINKING TOO MUCH WATER CAN KILL YOU, FYI.



But it only kills a very small number of people, so I'm going to go ahead and polish off this 5 gallon jug of Evian. Because, y'know, the percentages are small which means it'll only happen to "that other guy".



WTF?LOL!

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

FEB 20, 2007 12:06 PM

yourfashionwar said:
i just don't see why it's so hard to stop drinking for a few months out of one's life. i certainly don't think it should be legislated (as per the previous "meth babies" article), but i do think that a pregnant woman who carries a child to term has a duty to not engage in behaviors that present a risk of harm to the fetus, when such behaviors are easily foregone during pregnancy.



There are tons of things that "present a risk" to a fetus, including driving in a car or living in a city. What is so damaging about a glass of wine or a beer?

earthgodd3ss

earthgodd3ss

Yachats, OR
December 2006

FEB 20, 2007 12:06 PM

I don't have a big problem with *a* beer once in a while *hopefully a dark one full of vitamins and minerals* but am not behind liquor during pregnancy.

Wine is ok if it's organic and sulfite free.

I'm not demonizing women who doing it, nor am I judging them. My personal belief is that it's a no in my book. I think women should be adequately informed on the effect that these things *may* have on an unborn fetus.

For example: Every inhale of a cigarette is robbing not only your body of oxygen, but their's as well.

*a side note about your previous article - a woman in this area was shooting meth during her first tri-mester. She carried her son to full term - he was born without a liver (and that's just the most shocking thing that's wrong with him). He will be on Social Security for the rest of his life - not to mention how miserable the rest of his life with be.*

RileyStClair

RileyStClair

Los Angeles, CA
September 2006

FEB 20, 2007 12:20 PM

PointBlank said:

yourfashionwar said:
i just don't see why it's so hard to stop drinking for a few months out of one's life. i certainly don't think it should be legislated (as per the previous "meth babies" article), but i do think that a pregnant woman who carries a child to term has a duty to not engage in behaviors that present a risk of harm to the fetus, when such behaviors are easily foregone during pregnancy.



There are tons of things that "present a risk" to a fetus, including driving in a car or living in a city. What is so damaging about a glass of wine or a beer?



ah, but the distinction is that to get anywhere, one generally must use a car. there are plenty of things that present a risk, but that are a necessary part of life. drinking alcohol is completely frivolous.

even if the risk of harm is small, it just seems irrational to me to roll the dice here when the only gain is purely selfish gratification, and temporary at that.

almostfamous

almostfamous

NEWSWIRE

United Kingdom

FEB 20, 2007 12:29 PM

what percentage a risk do you consider significant enough to require legislation?

once that baby's born there's all kind of risks you just aren't allowed to expose it to, or you'll face having the child taken away and/or imprisonment. do you feel that the government has no right to ensure you carry out that same standard of care before the baby is born, and if so, why?

DucksAreCrazy

DucksAreCrazy

Lexington, KY
December 2006

FEB 20, 2007 12:34 PM

Let me point out first of all:

Second, despite evidence to suggest that FAS may have a genetic component, there has been surprisingly little research. . . . One (kind of evidence) is from studies of twins: the medical literature has reported cases of franternal twins, in which one twin is affected with FAS and the other is not.



There has been, in fact, a lot of correlation and case study research done on alcohol and pregnancy over the last few decades. Not so with experimental studies; that's unethical. Without experimental studies, it's hard to be definitive from a scientific viewpoint.
It has been inferred, though, that drinking is most dangerous during the second trimester due to brain development.

Secondly, I don't necessarily disagree that it's okay to drink some. I will say that it often reflects upon the mother (or parents) ideals and self discipline. Take that as you will. I've had plenty of friends who drank occasionally during pregnancy, and plenty who didn't, and how their kids are turning out has less to do with that than the amount of sense they're being raised with.

But there are pregnant women who don't have enough sense not to down a 12 pack a night until the baby pops out. Those are the people the warnings were written for (although if you're too stupid to know better, what's the chance you're gonna read the warning).
Anyhow, this is just food for thought. Please don't get me started on modern parenting observances or television.

*If you reserve the right to raise an ignorant, asshole child, I reserve the right to stab them when they annoy me.*

RileyStClair

RileyStClair

Los Angeles, CA
September 2006

FEB 20, 2007 12:38 PM

almostfamous said:
do you feel that the government has no right to ensure you carry out that same standard of care before the baby is born, and if so, why?



well, considering that a woman has (at this point) a constitutionally protected right to terminate a pregnancy up until a certain piont, i'd say the standard of care is already different.

(i'm not using this to support a blanket license to fuck up your kid if you choose to have one, but it's a point i thought was worth mentioning).

The_New_Scum

The_New_Scum

United Kingdom
March 2006

FEB 20, 2007 12:42 PM

Not long ago the BBC had a documentary about FAS and would interview expectant mothers for their opinions on drinking whie pregnant and what information they had been given regarding it.

One of the most disturbing was one of the women who got all defensive. She claimed that just because she was pregnant, she wasnt going to be "a hermit" I'm not convinced being sober means you can't leave the house or have any fun.

Then she topped that comment with "Of course doctors say its dangerous to drink while pregnant. They're paid to say that!" eeek

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