There's nothing wrong with maintaining an open perspective about the world around you. Hell, that's how science and technology advance. However, whenever those advances have occurred, they have withstood the scrutiny of the scientific and academic communities. Without a sufficiently expositive proof from the realm of mathematics and the physical sciences, we cannot accept new phenomenon wholesale.

One other thing:

For the love of God, please stop trying to argue this from the perspective of a true negative. Proving that something that isn't real does not exist causes a small trickle of blood to run out of my ear (kind of like that sentence just did). That being said, it would kick ass if ESP and telekinesis were real, and if you're all right and I'm wrong, I owe you a coke.

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

JAN 19, 2007 11:12 PM

StevoD said:
There's nothing wrong with maintaining an open perspective about the world around you. Hell, that's how science and technology advance. However, whenever those advances have occurred, they have withstood the scrutiny of the scientific and academic communities. Without a sufficiently expositive proof from the realm of mathematics and the physical sciences, we cannot accept new phenomenon wholesale.

One other thing:

For the love of God, please stop trying to argue this from the perspective of a true negative. Proving that something that isn't real does not exist causes a small trickle of blood to run out of my ear (kind of like that sentence just did). That being said, it would kick ass if ESP and telekinesis were real, and if you're all right and I'm wrong, I owe you a coke.

Holy crap. You seem to be a n00bie, yet I love you nonetheless!

Keep up the good work!

MrStitches

Brooklyn, NY

November 2003

JAN 20, 2007 12:14 AM

It's not a matter of proving the negative, as proving it to be highly unlikely.

As for keeping an open mind, I agree to a point. Skepticism is just as important as openmindedness.

MrGinger

San Rafael, CA

November 2003

JAN 20, 2007 02:42 AM

apesamongus said:

MrGinger said:
Extra Sensory Perception.

Do believe in it?

God fucking no.

That you can ask this question seriously makes me weep.

As general as I am, did you know I hadn't realized you'd cry?
Do you disregard a probability of higher power, or at least, a more evolved form of life, than ours?

saltonsea

Toronto, ON

July 2004

JAN 20, 2007 07:01 AM

chainlink said:
No, if this were not true we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is in fact completely correct and there is perfectly reliable methodology in science to investigate these claims, if that is the methodology you're refering to.

If it were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Cause then it would be more of a "Bears exist/don't exist" conversation, than a "Sasquatch exits/doesn't exist" conversation, and i could look into an encyclopedia, and shut myself up.

The methodology i was refering to, was one that shows any significant evidence that ESP in any form exists. Which doesn't exist.

Honestly man, to see if you can move objects with your mind or read what I've written here in front of me from where you are, it really is that simple. In fact high school might be exaggerating a bit. It's fuckin elementary school stuff.

I doubt that it is. You can perform an exercise that reaffirms/alters your opinion. Or maybe a demonstration. But to conclusively prove anything?.....

i also think you are refering to a very hollywood version of ESP.

Yes. You arrive at a theory that makes sense and conforms to the laws of the universe as we understand them, not as your fantasies would like them to be.
Logic can be flawed if you are left without all the relevant information or evidence, it's only the best thing we have. BUT the best possibly theory based on logic is vastly superior to a theory based on your gut instincts or wishful thinking.

That's basically exactly what i said. Except that i tried to infer that people shouldn't cross the line to substituting fact with it.
More along the lines of, that i recognise my humanity, and therefore the strong possibility that i am wrong.

You don't find it the least bit odd that in hundreds of years of researching, investigating and studying ONLY the the false claims have come forward while all of the real ESPers have chosen to remain in the shadows?

No i don't. But i don't think 'only' the false claims have come forward. Just that it would be a hard case study, when 99.999999% of the people that show up are pretenders. Leaving any study destined to fail.
It would be like trying to study rabbit behaviour, by observing people dressed in bunny outfits.
The idea of ESP/precognition has been reduced to one of carnival entertainment. What sane, non-fameseeking person would admit to it?

That is actually, in fact, wrong.
Period.
If you ammend that to say ". . . majority of scientists that believe there is a possiblility ESP exists" I might accept that. But I would even be skeptical of that without some sort of evidence to back it up. I suppose as a massive generalization it would definitly be true. Up until you ask them what they thought the likelyhood would be. Then you are back to a major minority.

Ok, i will amend to say that, the majority of scientists believe there is a strong possibility that ESP exists in some form.
Though i am getting my information from a paper written in 1994, a clear majority of respondents expressed a belief in ESP. And only 2% claimed it to be an impossibility.
The actual group that waives the anti-ESP flag, are psychologists.

The difference here being that anal sex, homosexuality, punk music, space-travel, and giant squids all provided ample evidence that they could in fact be real. They were investigated and studied and guess what ? Viola ! they WERE real !

At this point, i was more refering to people's instinct to reject 'weird' ideas because they were raised on a popular view.
Much like the people who once believed 'the earth is flat and the centre of the universe' as logical science. Or those that think homosexuality is not natural.
But space travel was researched, and investigated at first with the same skeptisim, and only proved possible when the sufficient technology to do so advanced. The same with giant squid, which were considered a mythical creature. There was no ample evidence it existed. It was only considered a real possibility when a dead one washed ashore in the 1800's. And the first live observation of a collosal squid was in 2003.

And just getting a majority to believe in it is not going to make it any more real without evidence.

I never claimed or suggested that.

Maybe you misunderstand me. I'm not arguing ESP is real, or trying to prove it.
I'm just alarmed by people who act like it's been disproven, when all they have for evidence is their logic.
I find it too impatient. Give science more time. It is infinitely easier to prove/disprove physical theories, than it is with metaphysical ones.
We don't even yet have the optimal technology for such investigation.

SockPuppet

I'm lost

July 2006

JAN 20, 2007 04:19 PM

Roethke said:

chainlink said:

Roethke said:
Science is such a jerk.

I want that on a t-shirt !

I kept laughing when I read the way people keep talking about science as though it's a particularly persnickety and often disappointing person.

Science hasn't cured all diseases and he only calls late at night when he's drunk!

Science won't believe me when I tell him about how I make things float with my mind, but he keeps raving about this dark matter hoo-ha! That's just not fair

People, there's no credible reason to believe in ESP. A few stories from people who desparately want to believe in something important and exciting is not a credible source. My mother ruins watches. She can't wear them for longer than a week without them stopping. Is it because she's got superpowers? No, as she will tell you, it's because th human body creates electricity, and for some reason watches respond badly to her amount of electricity. Actual, it's not that uncommon a phenomenon.

Other animals have senses we don't have, but for some reason I never see people raving about how they can find insects at night with sonar.

SockPuppet

I'm lost

July 2006

JAN 20, 2007 04:29 PM

saltonsea said:
I doubt that it is. You can perform an exercise that reaffirms/alters your opinion. Or maybe a demonstration. But to conclusively prove anything?.....

To conclusively prove something exists, find a demonstrable (and preferably repeatable) example.

Is there one for ESP?

saltonsea

Toronto, ON

July 2004

JAN 21, 2007 02:52 AM

SockPuppet said:

saltonsea said:
I doubt that it is. You can perform an exercise that reaffirms/alters your opinion. Or maybe a demonstration. But to conclusively prove anything?.....

To conclusively prove something exists, find a demonstrable (and preferably repeatable) example.

Is there one for ESP?

No.
That's what i said..
read again.