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9/5/06

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Crivelli

Crivelli

United Kingdom
January 2005

SEP 01, 2006 01:40 AM

BBC News story.

A Roman Catholic archbishop has given his support to nine firefighters disciplined for refusing to hand out leaflets during a gay rights march.

They will go on "diversity training" courses after refusing to hand out leaflets at the Pride Scotia event which took place in June.

One of the firefighters involved was demoted from a watch manager to crew manager with a £5,000 salary cut. The remaining firefighters were given a written warning....


Whatever your views of the firemen being homophobes is, ask yourself one question, what the fuck does handing out leaflets at a parade have to do with being a fireman? And the purpose wasn't one of a recruitment drive to show how diverse and multi-whatsnamed the Service was, the purpose was

....to distribute community safety advice....

so someone thinks that the gays are all twisted firestarters?

A fire service spokesman earlier said the firefighters' refusal was a "fundamental breach of their core responsibilities".

"Firefighters cannot, and will not, pick and choose to whom they offer fire safety advice.


Maybe not but if I'd trained to be a fireman I'd want a say in how my time was used when it came to twatting about being a hostess with the mostest.

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

SEP 01, 2006 06:03 AM

I can see their reluctance to show up to a gay pride parade in uniform. I don't know about the UK...but here in the US...firefighters are not exactly the leading proponents of diversity.

On the other hand...an order is an order. Disobeying a lawful order because "we don't wanna" isn't a valid excuse.

Tadzi

Tadzi

Greeley, CO
April 2003

SEP 01, 2006 06:27 AM

maybe they could have gotten some cops, construction workers, cowboys, and native americans, too.

Crivelli

Crivelli

United Kingdom
January 2005

SEP 01, 2006 08:47 AM

Tadzi said:
maybe they could have gotten some cops, construction workers, cowboys, and native americans, too.


Probably the reason they didn't wish to participate.

quagmirething

quagmirething

I'm lost
June 2005

SEP 01, 2006 09:29 AM

Crivelli said:
Whatever your views of the firemen being homophobes is, ask yourself one question, what the fuck does handing out leaflets at a parade have to do with being a fireman?


That really is a standard part of the job. Handing out leaflets, giving talks at schools, safety inspections (especially for old people), smoke detector promotion and installation.

Now they've been joined by an organization with more than a thousand year history of persecuting homosexuals. That'll really help.

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

SEP 01, 2006 11:41 AM

quagmirething said:
That really is a standard part of the job. Handing out leaflets, giving talks at schools, safety inspections (especially for old people), smoke detector promotion and installation.



It's not really a standard part of the job. Your standard front-line firefighter doesn't really do the community-based aspect of fire prevention. Most departments have a special bureau for fire prevention. It is staffed by a Fire Official & Fire Inspectors. They are firefighters but they aren't on the front-line service. They do all of the presentations & whatnot.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, though.

Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

SEP 01, 2006 12:33 PM

quagmirething said:

Crivelli said:
Whatever your views of the firemen being homophobes is, ask yourself one question, what the fuck does handing out leaflets at a parade have to do with being a fireman?


That really is a standard part of the job. Handing out leaflets, giving talks at schools, safety inspections (especially for old people), smoke detector promotion and installation.

Now they've been joined by an organization with more than a thousand year history of persecuting homosexuals. That'll really help.



Closer to two thousand years, isn't it?

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

SEP 01, 2006 12:35 PM

No "flaming homosexual" jokes?

quagmirething

quagmirething

I'm lost
June 2005

SEP 01, 2006 01:59 PM

Cash said:
It's not really a standard part of the job. Your standard front-line firefighter doesn't really do the community-based aspect of fire prevention.


Yeah, I should have said those are standard parts of the job when the power that be are doing a high profile campaign. I've seen a few over the years, where everyone mucked in. God knows how common those are in Strathclyde though.

Clov said:
Closer to two thousand years, isn't it?


I think we have to allow for the possibility that, for a few years, they found something better to do.

Archbishop Conti said the training was "alarming".

"The duty to obey one's conscience is a higher duty than that of obeying orders," he said.


This year not being one them.

shazkhan

shazkhan

I'm lost
June 2006

SEP 03, 2006 01:54 AM

Cash said:

quagmirething said:
That really is a standard part of the job. Handing out leaflets, giving talks at schools, safety inspections (especially for old people), smoke detector promotion and installation.



It's not really a standard part of the job. Your standard front-line firefighter doesn't really do the community-based aspect of fire prevention. Most departments have a special bureau for fire prevention. It is staffed by a Fire Official & Fire Inspectors. They are firefighters but they aren't on the front-line service. They do all of the presentations & whatnot.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, though.




Your thinking of the US system of fire departments, here in the UK they are first of all called Brigades and that is part of the many differences.
Yes at the end of the day they are all for fire prevention and all of that, but they are also part of the community. Handing out leaflets on fire prevention to everyone would help awareness increase, and hopefully help to keep Firemen here out of dangers way and not risk their lives.

At the end of the day gay people aren't the only ones who need this advice and they shouldnt be told that some guys dont want them to know how to protect themselves.

Also another difference is as you have just said they are firefighters, in the UK they are Firemen, so this entails everything involved in the prevention. This was part of their job descriptions so I dont see why everyone here is complaining about it.

Mark_plus_Beer

Mark_plus_Beer

United Kingdom
August 2005

SEP 03, 2006 04:16 AM

PointBlank said:
No "flaming homosexual" jokes?



damn

Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

SEP 03, 2006 07:43 AM

quagmirething said:

Clov said:
Closer to two thousand years, isn't it?


I think we have to allow for the possibility that, for a few years, they found something better to do.



Don't let yourself be fooled. Five minutes after Christ was gone, Paul of Tarsus was all "Queers are going to h-e-double-hockey-stick."

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

SEP 03, 2006 08:55 AM

shazkhan said:
Your thinking of the US system of fire departments, here in the UK they are first of all called Brigades and that is part of the many differences.



Semantics...pure semantics. The name means nothing. It's like the difference between a TV and a tele.

I'm not assuming that Fire Departments in the US are identical to those in the UK...but saying that they're different because We call them departments while you call them brigades.....that's just nonsense.

shazkhan said:
At the end of the day gay people aren't the only ones who need this advice and they shouldnt be told that some guys dont want them to know how to protect themselves.



Nobody is advocating the exclusion of homosexuals from public education about fire safety.

I am saying that forcing firemen to hand out leaflets at a gay pride parade may not have been the best way to go about it.

Why do you think that sexual orientation warrants special attention from the fire department? Is there something different you would tell a homosexual about fire safety? What is so special about the gay community, in relation to fire safety education, that simply HAD to be addressed at this parade?

Is it wholly impossible that this was part of a political ploy by the higher-ups in the Fire Department? Some stunt to say "Hey look....the Fire Brigade is politically correct"...and maybe the members of the department resented that?

shazkhan said:
Also another difference is as you have just said they are firefighters, in the UK they are Firemen, so this entails everything involved in the prevention. This was part of their job descriptions so I dont see why everyone here is complaining about it.



Once again...the terms "firefighter" & "fireman" are interchangable. They mean the exact same thing. Once again...your point is a semantic one and has no bearing on the topic.

Finally I fail to see where "everyone here is complaining about it". Crivelli started the topic, Tadzi made a joke, quagmirething's response was more of a dig at the church, Clov's remark was in response to quagmirething's dig at the church and Pointblank's remark was more or less a joke.

My initial response was that while I understood the firefighter's reluctance to particiapte...their actions were not really the best course of action.

Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

SEP 03, 2006 10:25 AM

Cash said:
I can see their reluctance to show up to a gay pride parade in uniform. I don't know about the UK...but here in the US...firefighters are not exactly the leading proponents of diversity.

On the other hand...an order is an order. Disobeying a lawful order because "we don't wanna" isn't a valid excuse.



It would lead me to wonder, "If they can't get over handing out fire safety information at a parade, how're they going to feel about risking their lives for homosexuals?"

Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

SEP 03, 2006 10:30 AM

When I kill a homophobe, can I use the excuse, "The duty to obey one's conscience is a higher duty than that of obeying laws"?

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

SEP 03, 2006 10:34 AM

Clov said:
It would lead me to wonder, "If they can't get over handing out fire safety information at a parade, how're they going to feel about risking their lives for homosexuals?"



Really? Do you honestly think a firefighter would let a person die when they had the power to save them...just because they were a homosexual? That's not even taking into account how ridiculously impossible it would be to tell by looking at a house if homosexuals lived there. Unless, I suppose, they were screaming for help from the roof of the house....wearing gold lamay & a feather boa.

I'm a fireman. I hate drug addicts...but I took one to the hospital last night when she ODd on heroin...because it's my job.

I hate rich, snobby people...but I helped put out a huge fire in a very expensive part of town...because it's my job.

I'm sure some firefighters are homophobes. When I say that...I'm not making an educated guess. When I say that, I mean I know first-hand that some firefighters are full-on homophobic, intolerant people. They still save people, no matter the situation...because that's their job.

"We don't want to go to your fucking parade" does not translate into "I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire"

Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

SEP 03, 2006 01:21 PM

This wasn't like they were rejecting a social invitation. They said "No" to their boss about something as simple as community outreach because of where someone puts their dick.

And yes, I honestly think a person would let someone die because they were a homosexual. People will actually kill others because they are queer. I have no trouble imagining a person deciding a gay life is not worth saving, especially someone whose "conscience" won't let them hand out fliers at a parade.

because that's their job


Clearly, "because it's their job" is not reason enough for them do anything.

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

SEP 03, 2006 01:35 PM

Clov said:
And yes, I honestly think a person would let someone die because they were a homosexual. People will actually kill others because they are queer. I have no trouble imagining a person deciding a gay life is not worth saving, especially someone whose "conscience" won't let them hand out fliers at a parade.



Wow...just...wow. Do you even realize how irrelevant Harvey Milk, Matthew Shephard & Branton Teena are to this conversation?

This is a discussion about firefighters not wanting to appear in uniform at a gay pride parade...and you invoke some of the most high-profile cases of gay people being murdered. The three cases you presented are examples of someone being brutally and purposely murdered. You are seriously misguided...to the point of being irresponsible.

We are talking about the conduct of a firefighter in the course of their official duties. You firmly believe that a firefighter/EMS worker...in the commission of their duties in an emergency situation would say, without hesitation, "fuck that...I'm not helping that queer"?

This is about some immature guys who didn't want to go to a gay pride parade. This is not about Matthew Shepard, Harvey Milk & Brandon Teena. The fact that you'd view the two in the same context is ludicrous.


Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

SEP 03, 2006 02:07 PM

In the conversation we were having, in which I asserted that homophobia in one area could easily translate to a homosexual's life not being saved in another is directly related to people whose deaths were because of people who hated homosexuals. You asked if someone would stand by and let a homosexual die if it is their job to save people. I say, yes, there are people who are willing to kill homosexuals because they are homosexuals so how difficult is it to believe that someone would let someone die because they're a homosexual?

We are talking about the conduct of a firefighter in the course of their official duties. You firmly believe that a firefighter/EMS worker...in the commission of their duties in an emergency situation would say, without hesitation, "fuck that...I'm not helping that queer"?


Yes. Regardless of whether their occupation in general involves saving people's lives, I think a homophobe would stand by and let a person they think is homosexual die. Especially if they had previously defied orders to do something as simple as handing out fliers to potential gheys. If they had been asked to spend a week living in the Gay Buttsecks Commune and Lube-a-torium to assist in making the compound more fireproof, I might understand. But this was handing out fliers.

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

SEP 03, 2006 02:09 PM

Clov said:
In the conversation we were having, in which I asserted that homophobia in one area could easily translate to a homosexual's life not being saved in another is directly related to people whose deaths were because of people who hated homosexuals. You asked if someone would stand by and let a homosexual die if it is their job to save people. I say, yes, there are people who are willing to kill homosexuals because they are homosexuals so how difficult is it to believe that someone would let someone die because they're a homosexual?

We are talking about the conduct of a firefighter in the course of their official duties. You firmly believe that a firefighter/EMS worker...in the commission of their duties in an emergency situation would say, without hesitation, "fuck that...I'm not helping that queer"?


Yes. Regardless of whether their occupation in general involves saving people's lives, I think a homophobe would stand by and let a person they think is homosexual die. Especially if they had previously defied orders to do something as simple as handing out fliers to potential gheys. If they had been asked to spend a week living in the Gay Buttsecks Commune and Lube-a-torium to assist in making the compound more fireproof, I might understand. But this was handing out fliers.




This tells me you know little, if anything, about emergency service workers.

Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

SEP 03, 2006 02:10 PM

I don't believe emergency service workers are any better than the general population. I don't think any sizable occupation is any better than the general population.