Do you believe in magic?

I mean REAL magic. Not silly modern shit, or the kind of stuff you see in movies, but REAL old magic. Stuff like vodou, condomble, Kumina, Palo, etc.

I never used to, but then I started reading more and more, especially occult related novels, and noticing that regardless of the country or religion the magic is much the same. Maybe this isn't just coincidance? Even the Catholic church at one time embraced magic and superstition as part of it's reality, it was only as people started to become more "grounded" and analytical did the unexplainable become unbelievable. Even parts of modern Catholisism still have heavy similarities to ancient religions and beliefs. Example, Papa Legba of Vodou and St. Peter.

So what is it? Are there really powerful psycics out there? How about people who can summon and control ancient spirits? Are there even really ancient spirits? If there are, what are they? Who are they? The ghosts of long dead powerful people? The gods of the old polytheists and ancient tribes?

These are the kinds of things that I want the answers too.

Is magic haressy? Or is it a vital part of religion that we've lost touch with and that through missunderstanding has been outlawed by larger, more analytical religions?

Discuss

Only in a young girl's heart. How the music can free her whenever it starts.

But seriously. I've been studying conspiracy theories lately, and much of it revolves around the existence of mystical/occult/esoteric societies. And I've decided it's probably bunk.

Hokum, if you will.

ahh, but what is it about the "mystical/occult/esoteric" that makes it so easy for people to simply push off like so much rubish?

Example, is the belief in warewolves so much more far fetched than the belief in God himself? If anything they are a much more practical and scientificly reconcileable idea than that of a Supreme Diety.



I should preface anything I say in this thread by saying that I was raise Lutheran, but in college became Catholic in faith, though haven't gone through the process of becomming "officially" Catholic.

Most of the accounts I've found are second or third hand.

Esoteric and occult societies, by their very definition, do not allow the public to see their rites. And I don't think it's because they don't want anyone to know their secret. Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum satirizes this by having a group of colleagues invent a secret. An occult society finds out about it and kidnaps one of them to get it out of him, and at first he denies its existence, says he made it up. But he realizes that just increases the value of the secret to them. It's obviously good if he'll die for it.

Pairing the "mystical" and "magical" with the "esoteric" and "occult" is the only way to keep the belief in real magic alive. If their connotations weren't all so intertwined, we'd expect to be able to see people do magic, but since we assume it's esoteric knowledge, that we never see magic isn't that surprising. It's a catch 22.

If it really worked, there would be no need for technology.

Interesting. Why? I've yet to hear about a spirit who could, or would, take people to the moon. Or a magical ceremony that could calculate Pi to a million places.

yes i do!

EXCELLENT! What do you believe in? To what extent do you have faith in the supernatural?

what are your religious beliefs? can you reconcile christianity and a belief in the occult at the same time?

Not that I'm religious, but yes, yes it is infinitely more far fetched. One is an abstract, the other is a hairy thing running around.

i practice a spiritual path that includes magick, but i don't think that i believe the same things about it that most people do. i like the term "manufactured reality" much more, myself.

so the abstract is easier to believe in than the physical? interesting. Why? Please elaborate.

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

*casts arcane missiles at this thread*

i've got a +9 ogre slaying knife. i'm just sayin'.

nobody who's ever claimed to be able to use magic or psychic abilities has ever been able to reproduce it in a controlled experiment. since there isn't the faintest reason to believe magic does exist, then the simplest answer is that it doesn't.

Yeah, I believe in fucking magic. . .what is this, the dark ages? We have science now kiddos. It's like magic, but real.

i'm a science student and i also practice folk magick. my whole family does. i have no conflict between these two aspects of myself. it is entirely possible to appreciate both.

If you say so.

i do.

Politics:
If it worked, then either the magicians would rule everyone, or we'd be using magic for everything. Neither has happened.

Magic:
If magic is good at all, why would it not be good to go to the moon? It'd have to be cheaper than rocketry. I think your sources may be showing a lack of imagination. Or a desire to keep humans from Things Man Was Not Meant To Know.

Pi:
Who cares, if you can do magic? The whole point about magic is that it breaks cause and effect. That's what it's for. Pi is only useful and interesting if you want to model the world well enough to do technology that works.

Which is the other problem with magic. Since it's about defying cause and effect, you can't get the same effect from the same cause consistently. Because that would provide a cause/effect relationship.

most people that practice magic would disagree that it's about defying cause and effect. more accurately, it's about adding another independent variable to the cause-effect model.

That's because the spirits are capricious and mischievous.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Yeah, that's the ticket!

If you can trace it to a causal relationship, it's not magic. It's just regular. Magic is, by definition, supernatural. So if it fits into the standard cause and effect chain, it's natural and not magic.

and now I've got ronald mcdonald stuck in my head. thanks a lot.