Penetration (subtitled: can I go too far?)

I actually enjoy the candid shots as much as the nudity when they are rotated in. Seeing the girls have fun - that's what it should be about all of the time. I hope everyone continues contributing photos that run the gamut of everything that's been done so far. I think there's a desire for it all. (The face is always the my first point of attraction, anyway.) The photos are great, but it's the journals and discussions and humor and personalities that made me want to continue supporting this site. Unfortunately, these catfights do nothing for me. I get enough of that at home.

I want to talk about a mistake I made. I think it is relavent.
I worked at a restuarant about ten years ago. While I was new one of the other cooks told me that if I worked there long enough I was bound to end up hooking up with some of the girls that worked there. We all put in long tense hours together and on the weekends we usually ended up going out for drinks afterwards. It's just the nature of the business that you would get close to your co-worker and relationships would form.
There were so many good looking waitresses at the place I worked at that I didn't even know who to persue at first, but within two months I had already hooked up with two girls. The one that I was first attracted to turned out to be a bitch and things didn't work out too well. It kinda sucked cause her dad was the boss. The next girl I spent time with was a nymphomanic who had been with at least three other guys from the restuarant. We hooked up a bunch of times, but I couldn't get over the fact that she had been with other guys that I worked with. Also she wasn't that bright. I couldn't even have a decent conversation with her.
After things with her ended I decided I should get to know the girls I worked with better before getting envolved with them. I was in one of those transitional phases between wanting a booty call girl and a serious relationship. There was this one girl that I was truly overwhelmed by. She was incredibly good looking. So much so that I couldn't even talk to her. I figured she wouldn't even give me the time of day. I figured she must a bitch. All because of my own insecurities. One day I was rude to her and she turned to me and said "Oh, eat me!" in the sweetest way a nasty remark like that can be said. And everything between us changed. I realized I was the one being the asshole for no reason other then the fact I wanted to get to know her and couldn't muster the nerve to just be nice and talk to her. From that day forward I felt so at ease around her, I got to know her better and found out that I had met one of the nicest people in the whole world. Someone who would do anything for anyone. Who would go out of her way for her friends. Who was loyal to a fault. For the next three years we spent all of our free time together. Going shopping, to dinner, to plays, out to drinks. You name it, we did it. We became such good friends during that time that I didn't ever not want to be around her. She unfortunately moved to Florida when her father became ill. I was so heartbroken when she left that even though she would write me all the time I never responded. I didn't want to remember her. I couldn't deal with it. Eventually the letters stopped.
I think about her everyday still. I miss her now more than ever. And why? This may sound cheesey, but I'm willing to risk saying what I feel. Because of Dia. Dia's personality reminds me so much of [xxxxxxxx] that it is scary. It is why I have told her so many times that I don't want to fall for her. I have only been in love once and I don't know if I can deal with such overwhelming emotions again.
I find it ironic though that what I see going on now with some of the other girls on this site, is so strinkingly similar to the way other waitresses and girls would treat my friend. And even the way I was around her before I got to know the real her. It's sad, but I think it's envy. It's jealousy and self doubt. I admit I am still a bit unnerved about trying to chat up a great looking girl I see out at a bar, but then I think to myself about the potential of making a new friend instead of trying to just get some. It puts me at ease and I appraoch them with that as my goal instead. I no longer let petty feelings derail the opportunities in my life.
While none of this may seem like it has anything to do with whether or not Dia is going too far by showing penetration in an upcoming set. The responses, dare I say attacks, on her choice to push the envelope a bit are in my opinion not sincerely based in an aversion to her actions, but more as a sad display of cattiness I never expected to see at this site. Yes, she garners a tremendous amount of attention from both the male and female constituants on here, Yes, she is fawned over, dreamed about, and damn near worshipped by some, but it is not without merit. She is 100% devoted to the ideals we all cherish here at SG. Recognizing and respecting non conventional forms of beauty. This girl gives all of herself to this site, it's members, and it's models. None of that can be denied. Question my motives for defending her so vehemantly if you wish. But you can't run from the fact that even when faced with adversity she confronts it with love. I admire that. I haven't seen that type courage since the likes of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and he in my opinion was one of the greatest humans to ever walk the face of the earth.
All this is my subjective opinion on the underlying cause behind the reactions as of late. I could be wrong, in fact I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

Dr. Sigmund Minimalism

[pokes head out from under sheets]
Has the arguing stopped yet?

Phew, all that shouting was making me sad.

eeew?

hmm.

i always hear the "art" thing but isnt that a bit erm... i mean this with no offense at all, but arrogant? i dont claim to have some definition of art, or nude art, or whatever but are we ALL really artists just because we decide to get naked in photographs? art doesnt mean much if anything anyone does in the medium is considered art. i love suicidegirls but at the end of the day you have to remember... its a site about getting naked. fun? yes. art? eh...

I really didn't want to get into this, but I feel a few things must be reiterated.

First and foremost, this is a site where the girls are in control. Of course, SGHQ has the final say. The autonomy is one of the big things that drew a lot of SG's here, including yourself, gutterstar. When some girls put pressure on others to do or not do things (for whatever reason), then some of this autonomy is lost.

Some girls are afraid that if Dia does an insertion, more members will want to see that from them. I honestly don't think this has any foundation. I have heard a lot of people who want to see it and many who don't want to. Nobody is going to expect one SG to follow another, because that isn't what this site is about, and the girls' sets are different enough as it is. For example, just because Marie, say, does g/g shoots, and so many of the members liked that, I don't think Chicago (e.g.) feels pressured to do one. The same will be true of insertions. As has been noted, some people don't even like that sort of thing (as some people don't like the g/g scenes), so I really fail to see where this pressure would be coming from. No doubt, if I believed the pressure would be there, I would be more reticent for supporting Dia, but as it stands, I really see no pressure there.

gutterstar, I hope this doesn't preclude your being an SG here. I would like you to do this, as you seem so excited to be a part of the site. To be frank, though, this is at the least an erotica site. There will be things here that would not please people's mothers (at least a good number of them), especially one who is a catholic school teacher (i think that's what you said.). I mean, if your mom is ok with your posing on a site where girls make out nude, then I don't see how she can have a problem with the insertion. Then again, I don't think your mom will be browsing the site, so it really comes down to whether YOU feel comfortable with it (taking into account your mother's feelings, of course). I do hope you understand (as you probably do) that it wouldn't be entirely fair to ask that a model (on a site with this much autonomy) not do something so that one could feel better about becoming a model here. I am not saying you are doing that, by the way.

As another note, Dia inserting anything into her vagina might be disgusting or ugly or insulting to people, but it is not an objectification of women. If anything, the use of a phallic toy represents the objectification of the male member, and is indeed even less objectifying than normal m/f sex, since the female is the one in full control over her body and her own pleasure.

Believe it or not, I am not even saying whether I believe the pics should be posted. I think that Dia should take whatever pics she wants (der) and send them to SGHQ. It comes down to what they want for the site. I am sure they actually appreciate the member input, and don't see this thread as a precursor to undue pressure to be put upon their choice. They should know by now that we are for the most part very reasonable folks who have so far loved everything we have seen! Perhaps we should have more faith that SGHQ will make a decision based upon what they want for the site, and not what they might feel pressured to do. *shrug* I don't think anyone will leave because SGHQ says no penetration. It's a reasonable decision. I will be here either way. Like Dia said, she could take the pics elsewhere, but she wanted to test the waters here, and she is (apparently) one who likes to break fresh ground, etc. She (very tactfully, I think) started this thread to see what people thought. Should she have gone to SGHQ first? Eh.. perhaps, but I seriously think she didn't think all of this would happen and was really just wondering what people thought.

With all of the recent hullabuloo, we might have forgotten how truly civil the discussion started. Read the first few pages: even Dia and Elise got along! That's really what these boards and this community is about: sharing ideas in a civil manner. I think this is an issue that just got blown out or proportion by people getting emotional and either taking things the wrong way, or saying things they probably shouldn't have. That happens, too, and we will learn from it.

gutterstar, remember that this site is yours to do with as you please. You can make this site, or at least your own corner of it, whatever you wish. That's what's so beautiful about this site: the unfettered freedom of the girls. SGHQ has an overall feel of what the site should be, but I think that should be the only restraint in this process. Of course, member and other SG opinions are helpful, and that's what was being expressed here, but in the end, it's up to SGHQ and the girl.

SG will never be a site with anal fisting or champagne enemas. There will (almost definitely) not ever be full on (even lesbian) sex or gynecological-style spreads. I truly think the style that this site has always had will remain strong, so long as we think carefully about what we do, and SGHQ keeps its vision clear.

I am not singling out or flaming anyone here. I hope that's apparent. *shrug* It really doesn't matter a GREAT deal to me what spooky and misty decide. I just hate to see confrontations and misunderstandings lead to the splintering of a pretty close-knit community.

Did I mention that I <3 elara.

"There will (almost definitely) not ever be full on (even lesbian) sex or gynecological-style spreads."

from what ive heard/seen there may be a bit more spreading soon than some people would expect.

so? i like seeing the vagina personally, i dont think its dirty or bad. spreading gives someone a better view. i suppose some people might think of it in a dirty sense ("oh god that bitch wants it bad shes opening it up for me") ??? maybe some people think that way, though id hope not. when i see spreading i think "wow, the vagina really really really is a beautiful thing, and i certainly like seeing as much of it as i can"

is that bad?

i agree, but i think the rationale behind not having those types of close-ups is that it makes the vagina the center of attention of the shoot, and not the girl as a whole. i realize that that isn't what goes through your mind or anyone else's when they look at that, but i can understand a site such as this deciding that the focus will not be placed upon the genitalia, but upon the body as a whole. this isn't saying that you are a dirty man or something. i can just understand why (since so many other sites really are all about the vagina, the PARTS of the girls, rather than the girls themselves) SG might adopt this style of philosophy. *shrug*

i've refrained from posting to this thread from the beginning, trying to get everything i could out of it, and i finally feel that there's one point that needs to be made.

regarding pressure to insert things into your cooch if you're an sg and dia does it first:

i do not think it should be an issue.
i do not think dia inserting things will make the site hardcore.

why?

because i've been a member for goin on almost a year now, and the ORIGINAL SUICIDE GIRL, rose, STILL has not taken her hands out from in front of her crotch, no matter how explicit sasha might have been with that particular area inbetween sets rose was shooting. and genesis was an sg way before elara, and i don't see genesis' actions influencing what elara chose to grace us with.

it strikes me that the primary concern has been that dia showing pictures of explicit nature will somehow change the entire nature of the site. it won't. there are how many sg's now? 70-odd? maybe after dia, 2 or 3 girls might follow suit but i assure all of you that it won't get any further than that, because i believe that most of the sg's really just don't want to do it. AND, missy won't take pictures of it anyways.

so kiddies - chill yo. let chapter_one have his moment of zen, don't look at the pics if you don't want to, and keep on keeping on. the site will not become hardcore. you can still show your moms/sig. others girls like rose, elara, and whomever else.

nihixul: if EVERY shot were a close-up vagina shot i might agree, but i dont see how a few shots of a shoot suddenly turn a girl into a vagina. i think we can agree most (or all) of the members here enjoy looking at naked girls, hence joining a site where you pay to see naked girls. i cant speak for anyone else but to me the appeal of seeing naked girls is seeing some of what i dont see every day walking down the street. hence, as objectifying as it sounds (but logical if you really think about it) a huge part of what makes this site appealing to me is seeing those things... yes boobs, vaginas, butts, the works. obviously it would be boring if you didnt see the actual girls as well, but can we deny that we want to see their naked bits when we have paid to join a site where we see naked bits? and with that said, is any part of a naked girl really "dirtier" than any other? if someone has a close-up shot of her lips, or eyes, or even boobs no one seems to complain. but we have this stigma about vaginas for some reason... like actually seeing a vagina close up is some horrible, dirty thing. i happen to disagree. its one very appealing part of a very appealing whole.

*edit* had to add some "l"'s in, my keyboard is broke.

[Edited on Sep 10, 2002 by chapter_one_revisited]

i understand completely, chapter_one_revisited, i just don't think it is strange for a site to decide to not have pictures where the near-entirety of the shot is the genitals, as a conscious reaction against those site whose only focus is the genitals. note that i am not saying that i think sghq should adopt this reasoning: i just could see why they would. of course, i agree with the argument that 2 shots out of 30 do not set the tone for the shoot, completely. my only point was that i don't think it *unreasonable* for a site such as this to decide to not do such shots, for the reasons i mentioned above (to make a point of it). for me, and most of us (inc. me), it doesn't really matter, because we will ignore those pics if we don't like them, and those who like them will see them. however, to the administration, it might be an ideological issue to which they want to set a identifiable precedent. *shrug*

as an addendum, i too wish that there wouldn't be such a stigma placed upon the vagina, but that's how it is, and i don't know what to do about it. i understand where it comes from, and that it takes a challenging of this stigma to overcome it. however, i can also see how SG might not want to go down that road, because it isn't an easy one. *shrug*

does that make sense?

ps - i really don't like that emoticon. i think it comes off wrong too much. *shrug*

[Edited on Sep 10, 2002 by Nihixul]

nihixu: i sort of half see your point, except for one thing. why is there a stigma about the vagina, and for that matter sex, drugs, blah blah blah. because we build them ourselves. here we have a perfectly nice site that is obviously breaking away from typical "porn"... if we were to show FEAR of the vagina what would that be saying? vaginas are bad? nice girls dont show their vaginas? leave vaginas to the "dirty" sites, we only show "clean" parts here? i think that would lead to MORE objectification of women. because it would keep portraying the vagina as this *seperate* entity that has nothing to do with nice clean women... only some dirty part to have dirty sex with, that should never been thought about, looked at, or shown by decent people.

i understand that. i am not saying i agree with this stance i am offering. i am just offering it as rationale for a site to not include such pictures. i am not saying that it is good or bad. stigmata are exactly what we make them out to be. this site, whichever way it leans, will effect the way we see some things. i don't disagree with that.

i also think that this would not end up being a prob on the site, for many girls, like robin, have said that showing their vagina isn't something they want to do here. i think it would end up like the insertion idea: it would happen every now and again, but it would not become part of the majority of sg posts (simply b/c that isn't what a lot of the girls are into).

ahh wasted font.

[Edited on Sep 10, 2002 by suiciety]