NEWS: Gaza is Not Iraq

illegal occupation? racist Zionists? Do you even know the history of the area? Let me take you back. Its 1948 and the British who occupied the area pull out leaving behind two state which they created, one for the Arabs and one for the Jews. The Jewish region is about to delcare itself a state when a Joint military attack by Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese and Iraqi troops invaded Palestine. This is what is called the Israeli War of Independence. Israeli won the conflict and in doing so gained control of some of disputed area to act as a buffer against future invasions from Arab countries and they kept comming, as in 1956, and 1967.

They did get more after some of the later wars like in 1967 but that land wasn't part of Palestin.
The Gazaa strip was Egyption territory, The west bank was taken from Jordan and Golan Heights from Syria.

Now I do feel terrible for Palestinians but you can't rest the blame solely on Israel. They were mostly screwed over by their "brother" Arab nations and the British.

Also if you want to call Israel a bunch of racists you might want to remember that there is a large non-Jewish minority, mostly comprising Muslim, Christian, and Druze Arabs. The Druze joined Israeli War of Independence on the side of the Jews because of the harsh treatment they were getting from the Palestinian Muslims.

Now I am not saying that Israel hasn't been angles in this themsevles but there are two sides to every coin and to lay the blame squarly on who you call "racist Zionists" vastly over simplifies this entire conflict.

If you want to read a real account that isn't biased to either side Wikipedia has a good article Here

[Edited on Aug 16, 2005 by hadees]

Yeah but why do Palestinians get the land why not Egypt. See what i don't understand in your reasoning is why Palestinians should get the land. You say because they lived there and they aren't Egyption anymore but the Israelis lived there too. So I don't think you can really say that Israelis have no claim but Palestinians do. By what I have heard you talking about you should be for Egypt getting the land.

The fact is Palestine was created by the British and it never had a chance of becoming a state because of the war of 1948 which wasn't even started by Israel.

I am glad that they have pulled out however because it is a good peace move and I do belive the Palestinians should get the land.

[Edited on Aug 16, 2005 by hadees]

I don't care who gets it.

Palestinians need one of two things. They either need to be made citizens of Israel or they need to be handed over to a sovereign authority that will grant them citizenship. They need this without being violently forced off the land they live on. (Ethnic cleansing is right out, the worst sort of "soution" possible.)

Whether that authority is Palestinian, Egyptian, or Jordanian should make no difference. That is for the Palestinians, Egyptians, and Jordanians to work out. If Gaza wants to merge with Egypt and Egypt is okay with it then Gaza will merge with Egypt. Whatever.

Here we go again. And this is the major problem that the middle east faces. Each side can go on virtually forever about the wrongs the other side has committed. They are both right. Each side is guilty of atrocities, each side is totally to blame and each side is as pure as freshly washed baby lamb. We can argue about it forever and we will all be correct and we will all be wrong (ok, granted some of us are way more wrong than others). But the only way people will stop dying is stop arguing over moral superiority and take some action. That seems to be what Sharon has done and if others could follow his lead we might actually get somewhere. I don't think Sharon has pure motives in this, but for fuck sake, after decades of carnage, anything is a nice step.

btw: Read This Before Posting.

Just FYI.

I sort of argee with you, my point is that what you seem to consider Palestin is no more then an arbitrarily divided land created by the British. Infact there were lots of Jews living on what the British decided was the Arab part and lots of Arabs living on what the British decided was the Jewish part. I think it can be said the orginal arbitrarily created Jewish state was not in the wrong to redraw some of that partion after the arbitrarily created Arab state along with a bunch of other Arab nations attempted to "run the Jews into the sea".

That being the way it is I think the arbitrarily created Arab state lost it's claim to some of that land simply because they attempted to take all the land and failed.

I totally agree. I am not trying to say there weren't terrible things done by Israel. For example they let Christian militains into a refugee to slaughter Arabs.

My main point I am trying to convey is that Palestiniens need a state. But to say they should get the exact land that was arbitrarily given to them by the British doesn't make a whole lot of sense. In my opinon neither side has any more claim to that land then the other save for the fact the Arab state started a war because they wanted all the land and didn't want any Jews there at all. So Israel has to give them some land for a state and Gaza is a good start and as for other land there needs to be needs to be real negotiations and Palestiniens can't expect all the land back from 1948 and Israel can't expect to keep all the land it wants.

One thing I also think is over looked at one point Palestiniens got like 98% of what they wanted and turned it down.


[Edited on Aug 17, 2005 by hadees]

It's possible to have 98% of something and still have a lot of problems. Give me 2% of the US, I'll take the roads. Clearly the deal wasn't as bad as that, but it would have left a lot of the west bank carved up with roads. Roads with all the usual military patrols and buffer zones.

It is a well worn myth, the old Zionist saying that Israel was founded by a "people without land, on a land without people." I don't give a rat's ass what you call the people, Palestinian, whatever, but the fact remains that the people were there, and were there for say, oh, over a thousand, years.

A quick history lesson:

1918. The "Palestinians," or what ever you want to call them, were under control of a foreign empire, the Ottoman Empire (Turkey). The Ottoman Empire was Axis in the First World War. The Palestinians struggled for self-government, as they once had before the Ottoman Empire. They cooperated with Britain, in a promise that with the defeat of the Ottoman Turks, the "Palestinians" would have their country back. Britain took back their promise.

Watch "Lawrence of Arabia" if you want some edu-tainment. Lawrence of Arabia, a British hero, soured on his country for there taking their promise back.

1918-1947. British Mandate.

Britain controled Palestine (and yes, it was called Palestine). There was an influential Zionist movement in Britain that began plans to take over Palestine. The first Zionists (I use this term to describe Jews who planned to set up a theocratic Jewish State in Palestine) were British. They manipulated immigration laws and began moving to Palestine. Who knows who threw the first stone, it doesn't matter. The fact is that the Palestinians had no control over their own country, and Britain allowed the Zionists to take over the country bit by bit.

1947 - Following the Second World War, a new influx of immigrants arrived, those displaced by the Holocaust. It is during this time that things began getting out of control. Britain, realizing the mess they had made, turn the problem over to the newly formed United Nations. The United Nations, try as they might, could solve the problem. They tried splitting the land in half, like India and Pakistan, but this did not work. Trans-Jordan was created in the process, but Palestinians remaining in the soon to be created Israel were not in any mood to be uprooted from their homes and move to Jordan.

1948 - War. Palestinians lose, Israel formed. Noncombatant Palestinian refugees not allowed back on their land.

1967 - With the cooperation of other Arab nations, another war erupts, the Six Day War. The Arab Coolition soundly defeated. Against U.N. resolutions, Israel keeps the newly conquered land. The resolution states, that even if a country is invaded by an aggressor, the invaded may not occupy lands conquered during the conflict. Israel ignores the resolution. This how Gaza was taken from Egypt, the West Bank from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

Now, even if you ignore everything previous to 1967, as most people seem to do, or just forget, the current Intifada has its roots in the illegal occupation of foreign lands, namely lands belonging to Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.

True, "returning" the land to the Palestinians makes no sense, as Gaza truely belongs to Egypt, but at least it is a small concession (and I mean small) in light of all the shit the Palestinians have been put through historically during the past 100 years.

[Edited on Aug 17, 2005 8:00PM]

Yes, I will conceed that I over simplified my argument. I am well aware of all that you have said regarding other minorities in the region. It is truly fucked up. Christian sects even fight against each other over ownership of bricks at some holy sights. It is sick. When I wrote the original post, (I was first) I had no idea there would be so many other intelligent resonses, and so many other ignorant responses.


Still, I think most people forget that Palestine has been screwed since the First World War.

As for land being returned by a nation who won in defensive war, there is no tradition of that, true, but there is a long standing U.N. (they just formed after the WWII) resolution demanding the return of the occupied lands.

What is your source for the above statement about the 'arabs sold the land' ?

woops

[Edited on Aug 25, 2005 by hadees]

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[Edited on Aug 25, 2005 by hadees]

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[Edited on Aug 25, 2005 by hadees]

Wendy, I forgot to comment that the website you gave me is a very unreliable source. Its like asking the white house why we went to Iraq. I would like to ask you one thing though, since you recommended that I go to this website, you probably know a lot more about this organization than I do....whats with all the forestry stuff?