TOPICS:
FEB 10, 2005 01:27 AM
FEB 10, 2005 01:40 PM
FEB 10, 2005 01:57 PM
Albion said:
sickmachine said:
Do you know how small Israel actually is?
The people who chose to flee to neighbouring countries were only fleeing a few miles regardless. For those fleeing to Jordan it was like people from Manhattan going to live in Brooklyn. For everyone else it was like "moving upstate".
OK, let's give Manhattan back to the Indians.....snip
Kind of missing.....well avoiding the point.....well actually screaming and running away from the point
However if you want to talk about who was in Israel first, I'd be happy to 
No, it's not. It's called an analogy. I'm showing you the ridiculousness of historical guilt. The indians were here first, but I don't see you or I rushing to give them land back. And if you'd included the rest of my post you'd see I was saying how "moving upstate" can be a very big deal.
Were they fleeing to an alien country & culture? Well, the borders and national identities of modern Palestine, Lebanon, Syria & Jordan had only been established about 30 years - this after THOUSANDS OF YEARS of being the same country.
30 years is a long time. Enough to change the differences in culture between one group of arabs and another....snip
oh come on , really!
since the Romans christened the place Palaestina.....
through various invasions and owners...
up through the centuries of the Ottoman Empire....
HAVING NEVER been an independent state......
and never visibly WANTING to be an independent state.....
Doesn't mean they didn't want to be. And doesn't change the fact that they got kicked out of their homes.
and never displaying nationalist aspirations as a people...
who most of that time being quite happy to be called Syrians...
you expect me to believe that....
suddenly......
DRAMATICALLY.....
DESPITE 2000 YEARS of not giving a flying fuck about national identity....
the Palestinians became a distinct nationality
and all in about the same amount of time that Justin Timberlake has been alive???
That one set of Arabs on one side of a small fence develops a completely DISTINCT NATIONAL IDENTITY from their friends and relatives a few miles away.
I never said that. I said their cultures would change and that they would not necissarily feel at home in their new locations "upstate".
"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate." Prince Hassan, (King Hussein's brother), Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1970
"Palestine and Jordan were both (by then) under British Mandate, but as my grandfather pointed out in his memoirs, they were hardly separate countries. Transjordan being to the east of the River Jordan, it formed in a sense, the interior of Palestine." King Hussein, writing in his Memoirs
"There should be a kind of linkage because Jordanians and Palestinians are considered by the PLO as one people." Farouk Kadoumi, head of the PLO Political Department, quoted in Newsweek, 14th March 1977
"Palestine and Transjordan are one, for Palestine is the coastline and Transjordan the hinterland of the same country." Jordan's King Abdullah, Arab League, Cairo, 12 April 1948
"The new Jordan, which emerged in 1949, was the creation of the Palestinians of the West Bank and their brothers in the East. While Israel was the negation of the Palestinian right of self-determination, unified Jordan was the expression of it." Sherif Al-Hamid Sharaf, Representative of Jordan at the UN Security Council, 11th June 1973
"Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine but, rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations, both day and night. Though we are all Arabs and our point of departure is that we are all members of the same people, the Palestinian-Jordanian nation is one and unique, and different from those of the other Arab states." Marwan al Hamoud, member of the Jordanian National Consultative Council and former Minister of Agriculture, quoted by Al Rai, Amman, 24th September 1980
So if Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan, why can't they just FUCKING RENAME the bastard country "Palestine" and have done with it???
Didn't YOU mention something about a Saudi gov't?
Yet the country isn't called Palestine and it's run by a minority tribe originally from Saudi.
So how would you feel if your country wasn't ruled by your people? I know I wouldn't want to live there.
Again - who's fault is that?.
Democracy isn't exactly endemic in the Middle East.
Perhaps the more people see the Israelis & Iraqis being able to choose their leaders, the more Jordanians who call themselves "Palestinian" will want the right to change the name of Jordan back to "Palestine."
Doesn't mean they have to live there.
Their choice of "Jordan" as a national name instead of "Palestine", their choice of "refugee" status rather than regular citizen and their lack of democracy is their business - nothing to do with Israel.
Not if their homes are IN what is Israel.
Again - not Israel's fault. If the Arabs hadn't started killing the Jews, there wouldn't have been a war and they wouldn't have felt the need to flee.
And besides - I don't anyone commiserating with the 800,000 Jewish people who lost their houses, cars and businesses when all the Arab countries kicked them out.
Shouldn't people be allowed to live where they choose?
Shouldn't a bunch of violent crazed rednecks be able to live right there on that Amish farm or on that Native American reservation, if they want to?
Besides - AGAIN:
the fucking principle of the matter.
Jordan was founded for the Arabs of the Palestine region.
The Arabs got over three quarters of the British Mandate Palestine
The Israelis got less than one quarter - even though the Jewish people had a much stronger connection to that land than the Arabs, a
There are 26 Arab countries and 46 Muslim countries in the world
There is just one Jewish State - the size of New Jersey
And even this they are happy to share with the Arabs that didn't flee
I'm not talking Israel. I'm talking the OZs in Gaza and the West Bank. There are plenty of times when Palestinians left for fear of their lives. To say the violence is ALL from Palestinians is retarded.
Even though Jordan kicked out its Jews
And that makes it all ok. Right.
So - in short and in the words of the bard: (ahem)
"Why the fucking, bloody, cunting, FUCK should Jordanian citizens have any bastard rights to lands they lost in Israel"
Move the fuck on.
The same could be said about Israel. Why the FUCK should they have any rights the the lands THEY lost?
[Edited on Feb 09, 2005 by Albion]
FEB 10, 2005 04:47 PM
sickmachine said:
Albion said:
sickmachine said:
Do you know how small Israel actually is?
The people who chose to flee to neighbouring countries were only fleeing a few miles regardless. For those fleeing to Jordan it was like people from Manhattan going to live in Brooklyn. For everyone else it was like "moving upstate".
OK, let's give Manhattan back to the Indians.....snip
Kind of missing.....well avoiding the point.....well actually screaming and running away from the point
However if you want to talk about who was in Israel first, I'd be happy to
No, it's not. It's called an analogy. I'm showing you the ridiculousness of historical guilt.
So it's NOT an analogy, then. I wasn't talking about "historical guilt" I was talking about distance - about how the Palestinians only fled a few miles - big whoop.
The indians were here first, but I don't see you or I rushing to give them land back. And if you'd included the rest of my post you'd see I was saying how "moving upstate" can be a very big deal.
Except as I said - and as you can see on any map of Palestine produced before the defeat of the Ottomans - parts of Lebanon, Syria & Jordan were Palestine.
I can't imagine it would be THAT big a culture shock for a New Yorker to move from Queens to Flushing.
Doesn't mean they didn't want to be. And doesn't change the fact that they got kicked out of their homes.
they fled their homes because of a war their people started
So if Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan, why can't they just FUCKING RENAME the bastard country "Palestine" and have done with it???
Didn't YOU mention something about a Saudi gov't?
The Hashemites were an Arab tribe that historically originated in Saudi. I doubt they were being sincere, but in a way they are right. The developed parts of Jordan including the capital Amman were always in Palestine. The majority of the people in Jordan are decended from Palestinians.
Perhaps the more people see the Israelis & Iraqis being able to choose their leaders, the more Jordanians who call themselves "Palestinian" will want the right to change the name of Jordan back to "Palestine."
Doesn't mean they have to live there.
A non-sequitur if ever I heard one.
Why should Israel give land to people because of Jordan's lack of democracy.
Shouldn't people be allowed to live where they choose?
The Arabs got over three quarters of the British Mandate Palestine
The Israelis got less than one quarter - even though the Jewish people had a much stronger connection to that land than the Arabs, a
There are 26 Arab countries and 46 Muslim countries in the world
There is just one Jewish State - the size of New Jersey
And even this they are happy to share with the Arabs that didn't flee
I'm not talking Israel. I'm talking the OZs in Gaza and the West Bank. There are plenty of times when Palestinians left for fear of their lives. To say the violence is ALL from Palestinians is retarded.
again you are losing the thread
the point here is about this bogus "refugees right to return" business.
Palestinian nationalism is an expedient - 20th Century means to an end. The "end" in question being the end of Israel.
The campaign for the "right to return" isn't about resettling the few thousand pensioners who actually owned homes in Ottoman Palestine. It's about bringing in millions of their decendents.
My great-grandparents were kicked out of Poland. I have no desire "for a right to return" to Warsaw.
The Jews kicked out of Jordan aren't hassling Jordan for a "right to return".
Jews made up a third of the population of Baghdad - there's no calls on Allawi to give them houses.
Why do millions of "Palestinians" who were never alive when Palestine actually existed, want to "return" to a country they never knew?
Why is there this pressure from the Arab world (and politically naive people in the West) for Israel to accept millions of Palestinians into the country?
Why do these same people ignore the presence of a land on Israel's doorstep that a) has a vast majority "Palestinian" population & b) contains about a third of Ottoman Palestine?
I'm sorry, but only a naive fool would think that the Palestinians hankering to return out of some pandemic attack of nostaligia.
The real reason for this pressure is Gerrymandering.
By flooding Israel with millions of Jordanian citizens whose great aunts once held the lease to a beach hut in Haifa, they want to abuse Israel's democracy and destroy the Jewish homeland by stealth.
"Well that's democracy", I hear you cry - well why not explain democracy to the Jordanians.
Morally, geographically and demographically Jordan IS Palestine. But the people bitching about a "right to return", never mention that!
So - in short and in the words of the bard: (ahem)
"Why the fucking, bloody, cunting, FUCK should Jordanian citizens have any bastard rights to lands they lost in Israel"
Move the fuck on.
The same could be said about Israel. Why the FUCK should they have any rights the the lands THEY lost?
1) that ain't the problem - Israel won it back
2) it makes no geographical sense to have a fragmented Palestinian state
3) morally, logically, politically, geographically and demographically a chunk of Jordan should be used as a Palestinian homeland - not a chunk the Jordanians stole from Israel
[Edited on Feb 10, 2005 by Albion]
xgenehawk
USA
December 2004
FEB 10, 2005 01:23 AM