Anyone know more about this?

Are you drunk? I didn't say a thing about weapons.

Who was president in 1988? An evil neocon perhaps?

maybe I am - but in the context of a discussion partly about whether or not America armed Saddam, you said "The difference being that the US was in the unique situation of being a supplier to a country that was attacking civilians".

What supplies were you actually talking about? You didn't make it exactly clear.

If I had meant weapons, I would have said weapons.

well supplied what then? porno mags? pepperami?

You can't be seriously denying that the US supported Iraq during its war with Iran? Not even stockula denies that.

Britain last used chemical weapons in Iraq and in the Middle East in the 1930's, which is in the living memoryof the older Iraqi's.

"The British had used chemical artillery shells against the Turks at the second battle of Gaza in 1917. They continued chemical shelling against the Shiites in Iraq in 1920 and used aerial chemicals in the 1920s and 1930s in Iraq."

This is a less than nobel part of English history, not forgeting the invention of concentration camps in the Boer War.

France has been quite active in providing Military support in the Middle East, for example in aiding the Israeli nuclear weapons programmes during 1940's and 1960's. Even Aparteit South Africa was involed in aiding that programme.

That France should have a hand in Iraq is no surprise. Oil, money and arms all go together. France, like most countries, is and has been motivated by self interest.

Source - US Army Study Paper

With a history of Western govenrments using the Middle East for there own ends, it's no great surprise that many Arabs are sceptical about the present aims of Western governments and business.

[Edited on Nov 26, 2004 by MetaTag]

Supported in what way? Supplier of what?

I'm sure that the US weren't exactly crying bucket loads about someone having a pop at the Iranians.

Some guy formerly in the Reagan administration made an allegation that the US knew about the sale of some parts to Chile. He also alleged that the Chileans used these parts to make a few cluster bombs for Saddam...but nobody - not even Clinton believed this guy.

Even if true, this peripheral involvement is dwarfed by the work carried out in Iraq by the French and Germans...but hey...as I say - there's no "anti-US" mileage in concentrating on those guys....





[Edited on Nov 25, 2004 by Albion]

"Some guy," that is, the US Ambassador to Iraq, was fully aware that the gassing of the Kurds was happening. He high-tailed it to Washington to let the administration know. He was shocked when it did absolutely nothing about it. Chose to look the other way because it suited them.

[Edited on Nov 25, 2004 by troglodyte]

yeah - and I'm soooo sure the anti-war lobby would have just lurved a full scale US invasion of Iraq back then......

again, with the double standards - you fling crap at the US for "choosing to look the other way", when some countries (which miraculously escape your criticism) built the factories that made the chemical weapons

I didn't say a damned thing about a fullscale invasion you twit.

False dilemma.

yeah - well when push comes to shove, you aren't really saying an awful lot

you aren't specifying what you think America supplied Saddam
you aren't specifying how you think America supoorted Saddam
you aren't saying what America should have done in respect of the Kurds
and you sure as shit aren't saying anything against the French & Germans

mind you...for someone who isn't saying anything you really can make a lot of noise

night night

It's common fucking knowledge. No one denies it.

I've said it plenty of times before. There's plenty they could have done.

And that's all you're talking about.

I know you think going against the grain makes you a cool iconclastic type, but it takes more than simply being contrary to be an iconoclast.

sadly i will never join the ranks of the(or should i say teh) online uberhip...sombody shoot me please?

The advice we usually give around these parts:

Kill yourself.

At least you're sorry for what you did.

you can't be serious

It was a joke man. Hence the

Don't worry about it.

Not that you will read it Albion, but here you go:



September, 1980. Iraq invades Iran. The beginning of the Iraq-Iran war. [8]

February, 1982. Despite objections from congress, President Reagan removes Iraq from its list of known terrorist countries. [1]

December, 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq. [9]

1982-1988. Defense Intelligence Agency provides detailed information for Iraq on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for air strikes and bomb damage assessments. [4]

November, 1983. A National Security Directive states that the U.S would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing its war with Iran. [1] & [15]

November, 1983. Banca Nazionale del Lavoro of Italy and its Branch in Atlanta begin to funnel $5 billion in unreported loans to Iraq. Iraq, with the blessing and official approval of the US government, purchased computer controlled machine tools, computers, scientific instruments, special alloy steel and aluminum, chemicals, and other industrial goods for Iraq's missile, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs. [14]

October, 1983. The Reagan Administration begins secretly allowing Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt to transfer United States weapons, including Howitzers, Huey helicopters, and bombs to Iraq. These shipments violated the Arms Export Control Act. [16]

November 1983. George Schultz, the Secretary of State, is given intelligence reports showing that Iraqi troops are daily using chemical weapons against the Iranians. [1]

December 20, 1983. Donald Rumsfeld , then a civilian and now Defense Secretary, meets with Saddam Hussein to assure him of US friendship and materials support. [1] & [15

July, 1984. CIA begins giving Iraq intelligence necessary to calibrate its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. [19]

January 14, 1984. State Department memo acknowledges United States shipment of "dual-use" export hardware and technology. Dual use items are civilian items such as heavy trucks, armored ambulances and communications gear as well as industrial technology that can have a military application. [2]

March, 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the US becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons. [10]

May, 1986. The US Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax. [3]

May, 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq. [7]

March, 1987. President Reagan bows to the findings of the Tower Commission admitting the sale of arms to Iran in exchange for hostages. Oliver North uses the profits from the sale to fund an illegal war in Nicaragua. [17]

Late 1987. The Iraqi Air Force begins using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq. [1]

February, 1988. Saddam Hussein begins the "Anfal" campaign against the Kurds of northern Iraq. The Iraq regime used chemical weapons against the Kurds killing over 100,000 civilians and destroying over 1,200 Kurdish villages. [8]

April, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas. [7]

August, 1988. Four major battles were fought from April to August 1988, in which the Iraqis massively and effectively used chemical weapons to defeat the Iranians. Nerve gas and blister agents such as mustard gas are used. By this time the US Defense Intelligence Agency is heavily involved with Saddam Hussein in battle plan assistance, intelligence gathering and post battle debriefing. In the last major battle with of the war, 65,000 Iranians are killed, many with poison gas. Use of chemical weapons in war is in violation of the Geneva accords of 1925. [6] & [13]

August, 1988. Iraq and Iran declare a cease fire. [8]

August, 1988. Five days after the cease fire Saddam Hussein sends his planes and helicopters to northern Iraq to begin massive chemical attacks against the Kurds. [8]

September, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade anthrax and botulinum to Iraq. [7]

September, 1988. Richard Murphy, Assistant Secretary of State: "The US-Iraqi relationship is... important to our long-term political and economic objectives." [15]

December, 1988. Dow chemical sells $1.5 million in pesticides to Iraq despite knowledge that these would be used in chemical weapons. [1]

July 25, 1990. US Ambassador to Baghdad meets with Hussein to assure him that President Bush "wanted better and deeper relations". Many believe this visit was a trap set for Hussein. A month later Hussein invaded Kuwait thinking the US would not respond. [12]

August, 1990 Iraq invades Kuwait. The precursor to the Gulf War. [8]

July, 1991 The Financial Times of London reveals that a Florida chemical company had produced and shipped cyanide to Iraq during the 80's using a special CIA courier. Cyanide was used extensively against the Iranians. [11]

August, 1991. Christopher Droguol of Atlanta's branch of Banca Nazionale del Lavoro is arrested for his role in supplying loans to Iraq for the purchase of military supplies. He is charged with 347 counts of felony. Droguol is found guilty, but US officials plead innocent of any knowledge of his crime. [14]

June, 1992. Ted Kopple of ABC Nightline reports: "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980's, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into [an aggressive power]." [5]

July, 1992. "The Bush administration deliberately, not inadvertently, helped to arm Iraq by allowing U.S. technology to be shipped to Iraqi military and to Iraqi defense factories... Throughout the course of the Bush administration, U.S. and foreign firms were granted export licenses to ship U.S. technology directly to Iraqi weapons facilities despite ample evidence showing that these factories were producing weapons." Representative Henry Gonzalez, Texas, testimony before the House. [18]

February, 1994. Senator Riegle from Michigan, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, testifies before the senate revealing large US shipments of dual-use biological and chemical agents to Iraq that may have been used against US troops in the Gulf War and probably was the cause of the illness known as Gulf War Syndrome. [7]

August, 2002. "The use of gas [during the Iran-Iraq war] on the battle field by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern... We were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose". Colonel Walter Lang, former senior US Defense Intelligence officer tells the New York Times. [4]

source, with sources

Intelligent comments and sources. what an asshole.

Yea it was kind of an asshole thing to say.
Ooopss

Albion has proven in the past when I site sources of not responding to them if they somehow contradict what he is trying to say.

It was a jerk thing to say, but it seems easier to argue when someone doesn't provide sources, and it is annoying when someone refuses to address contradictory information...

my appologies

Sorry, should have added emote for sarcasm .
I wish more posts were as well sourced.