Current Events

TOPICS:

Previous

PAGE: 

1 ... 

274 | 275 | 276

 ... 460

Next

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2 | 3

Next

Michael_J_Totten

Michael_J_Totten

Iraq
February 2004

NOV 18, 2004 11:33 AM

The battle to retake Fallujah was hell, as war always is. But the residents of Fallujah lived in a Taliban-like hell before we even got there.



The Times of London has this report.



Mutilated bodies dumped on Fallujah's bombed out streets today painted a harrowing picture of eight months of rebel rule.



As US and Iraqi troops mopped up the last vestiges of resistance in the city after a week of bombardment and fighting, residents who stayed on through last week's offensive were emerging and telling harrowing tales of the brutality they endured.



Flyposters still litter the walls bearing all manner of decrees from insurgent commanders, to be heeded on pain of death. Amid the rubble of the main shopping street, one decree bearing the insurgents' insignia - two Kalashnikovs propped together - and dated November 1 gives vendors three days to remove nine market stalls from outside the city's library or face execution.



The pretext given is that the rebels wanted to convert the building into a headquarters for the "Mujahidin Advisory Council" through which they ran the city.



Another poster in the ruins of the souk bears testament to the strict brand of Sunni Islam imposed by the council, fronted by hardline cleric Abdullah Junabi. The decree warns all women that they must cover up from head to toe outdoors, or face execution by the armed militants who controlled the streets.



Two female bodies found yesterday suggest such threats were far from idle. An Arab woman, in a violet nightdress, lay in a post-mortem embrace with a male corpse in the middle of the street. Both bodies had died from bullets to the head.



Just six metres away on the same street lay the decomposing corpse of a blonde-haired white woman, too disfigured for swift identification but presumed to be the body of one of the many foreign hostages kidnapped by the rebels.



[…]



Such is the fear that the heavily armed militants held over Fallujah that many of the residents who emerged from the ruins welcomed the US marines, despite the massive destruction their firepower had inflicted on their city.



A man in his sixties, half-naked and his underwear stained with blood from shrapnel wounds from a US munition, cursed the insurgents as he greeted the advancing marines on Saturday night.



"I wish the Americans had come here the very first day and not waited eight months," he said, trembling. Nearby, a mosque courtyard had been used as a weapons store by the militants.



Another elderly man, who did not want his name used for fear the rebels would one day return and restore their draconian rule, said he was detained by the militants last Tuesday and held for four days before being freed. He described how he had then sought refuge in a friend's house where they had huddled together clutching Korans in silent prayer for their lives as the massive US bombardment put the insurgents to flight.



"It was horrible," he told an AFP reporter."We suffered from the bombings. Innocent people died or were wounded by the bombings.



"But we were happy you did what you did because Fallujah had been suffocated by the Mujahidin. Anyone considered suspicious would be slaughtered. We would see unknown corpses around the city all the time."

Rowan

Rowan

SUICIDEGIRL

Washington, USA

NOV 18, 2004 11:47 AM

It's so sad that so many people throughout history are killed and slaughtered in the name of their own God. From the Crusades to the Holocaust to the Sudan and The Middle East, it seems like any time there is a mass murder of innocents, it is in the name of the "ever loving" Yahweh *sigh* The joys of monotheistic society! Whohoo! blackeyed

[Edited on Nov 18, 2004 11:47AM]

liquidflorian

liquidflorian

San Jose, CA
January 2004

NOV 18, 2004 11:54 AM

shocked fucking crazy ass people frown

Dr_Zoidberg

Dr_Zoidberg

Raymore, MO
June 2004

NOV 18, 2004 12:00 PM

Hate to say I told you so, so I won't! wink

Hank_Scorpio

Hank_Scorpio

Los Angeles, CA
October 2004

NOV 18, 2004 12:04 PM

It's just too bad that Shrub thumped his chest for so long and so loudly before the marines went in, thus allowing the leadership to get away.

vadge

vadge

Cleveland, OH
July 2004

NOV 18, 2004 12:07 PM

Michael_J_Totten said:
The battle to retake Fallujah was hell, as war always is. But the residents of Fallujah lived in a Taliban-like hell before we even got there.



I'm confused. What do you mean by "before we even got there." Was Fallujah a Taliban-like hell before the war? Or were the insurgents only able to take control after the chaos following the war?

In any case, this article is very depressing.

lamdalamdalamda

lamdalamdalamda

Chicago, IL
February 2003

NOV 18, 2004 12:19 PM

Kbear said:

Michael_J_Totten said:
The battle to retake Fallujah was hell, as war always is. But the residents of Fallujah lived in a Taliban-like hell before we even got there.



I'm confused. What do you mean by "before we even got there." Was Fallujah a Taliban-like hell before the war? Or were the insurgents only able to take control after the chaos following the war?

In any case, this article is very depressing.


yes, this article was depressing. and the people of fallujah may have got many of the perks of being baathist loyalists before we actually GOT THERE, iraq was hell. they suffered under a hellish regime backed by crappy u.s. foreign policy. the evil did not begin with the war. no noe was innocent. that is most depressing about this article. evil was replaced by evil replacing evil. mad frown mad

lamdalamdalamda

lamdalamdalamda

Chicago, IL
February 2003

NOV 18, 2004 12:21 PM

socalsk1nhead said:

TheTimidFool said:
*sigh* The joys of monotheistic society! Whohoo! blackeyed

[Edited on Nov 18, 2004 11:47AM]



Because polytheistic societies were paradise until monotheism moved in.


no, because pluralism should always trump religious authority.

vadge

vadge

Cleveland, OH
July 2004

NOV 18, 2004 12:22 PM

Following up on my previous post.. I'm trying to find some descriptions of everyday life in Fallujah before March 2003. Does anyone know of any web-based personal accounts of the city before the U.S.-led invasion?

vadge

vadge

Cleveland, OH
July 2004

NOV 18, 2004 12:33 PM

lamdalamdalamda said:

Kbear said:

Michael_J_Totten said:
The battle to retake Fallujah was hell, as war always is. But the residents of Fallujah lived in a Taliban-like hell before we even got there.



I'm confused. What do you mean by "before we even got there." Was Fallujah a Taliban-like hell before the war? Or were the insurgents only able to take control after the chaos following the war?

In any case, this article is very depressing.


yes, this article was depressing. and the people of fallujah may have got many of the perks of being baathist loyalists before we actually GOT THERE, iraq was hell. they suffered under a hellish regime backed by crappy u.s. foreign policy. the evil did not begin with the war. no noe was innocent. that is most depressing about this article. evil was replaced by evil replacing evil. mad frown mad



Yeah, I know and I agree. But was it really this bad before the war? Were these groups using extreme violence to control the city before the war? Or did the chaos after the war allow these groups to assume this type of control and power? I suppose my point is that there are different levels of "hellish regime"s. One can live under a repressive regime and, at the same time, not live under an immediate and constant threat of death and torture. Or one can be living under the hellish regime that is Fallujah right now. Can anyone honestly say that Fallujah was this bad before this whole war even started?? If not, is there reason to believe these conditions are actually going to improve??

llouys

llouys

Brazil
August 2003

NOV 18, 2004 12:43 PM

Kbear said:
Following up on my previous post.. I'm trying to find some descriptions of everyday life in Fallujah before March 2003. Does anyone know of any web-based personal accounts of the city before the U.S.-led invasion?



Not first hand, but there's some background here.

googused

googused

Portland, OR
OLD SKOOL

NOV 18, 2004 12:44 PM

Three cheers for religion. puke puke puke

Rowan

Rowan

SUICIDEGIRL

Washington, USA

NOV 18, 2004 12:52 PM

socalsk1nhead said:

TheTimidFool said:
*sigh* The joys of monotheistic society! Whohoo! blackeyed

[Edited on Nov 18, 2004 11:47AM]



Because polytheistic societies were paradise until monotheism moved in.



No, they weren't. But being that there was the idea of many Gods, there was a bit more give and take. There were war like gods yes. But there were also Gods to teach us about pacifism. Yes, there were Gods who demanded abstinence, but there were also Gods that spoke of sexual expression. For every male-centered deity, there was a feminine counterpart. Instead of a religious dictatorship, there was a religious senate if you will...Just my 2 cents. This has nothing to do with the topic, but oh well.

Michael_J_Totten

Michael_J_Totten

Iraq
February 2004

NOV 18, 2004 12:57 PM

Kbear said:
I'm confused. What do you mean by "before we even got there." Was Fallujah a Taliban-like hell before the war? Or were the insurgents only able to take control after the chaos following the war?


I mean before we got there last week.

Michael_J_Totten

Michael_J_Totten

Iraq
February 2004

NOV 18, 2004 12:59 PM

Kbear said:
Following up on my previous post.. I'm trying to find some descriptions of everyday life in Fallujah before March 2003. Does anyone know of any web-based personal accounts of the city before the U.S.-led invasion?


It was under the bootheel of the Baathist totalitarian police state: secret police, rape rooms, mass graves, the whole works.

googused

googused

Portland, OR
OLD SKOOL

NOV 18, 2004 01:05 PM

Michael_J_Totten said:

Kbear said:
I'm confused. What do you mean by "before we even got there." Was Fallujah a Taliban-like hell before the war? Or were the insurgents only able to take control after the chaos following the war?


I mean before we got there last week.



This could have been done MONTHS ago, but Bush was too worried about getting elected and let most of the high level insurgents slip out. That place should have been locked down and swarming with troops from the get-go. Another example of his amazing lack of abilty to lead.

Shal

Shal

Los Angeles, CA
October 2002

NOV 18, 2004 01:06 PM

Michael_J_Totten said:

Kbear said:
Following up on my previous post.. I'm trying to find some descriptions of everyday life in Fallujah before March 2003. Does anyone know of any web-based personal accounts of the city before the U.S.-led invasion?


It was under the bootheel of the Baathist totalitarian police state: secret police, rape rooms, mass graves, the whole works.



Yup. Now all the Fallujah residents are refugees, have had their homes and businesses destroyed, are under threats of being shot by jumpy US forces, or are dead.

It's a massive improvement, let me tell ya.

vadge

vadge

Cleveland, OH
July 2004

NOV 18, 2004 01:19 PM

Michael_J_Totten said:

Kbear said:
Following up on my previous post.. I'm trying to find some descriptions of everyday life in Fallujah before March 2003. Does anyone know of any web-based personal accounts of the city before the U.S.-led invasion?


It was under the bootheel of the Baathist totalitarian police state: secret police, rape rooms, mass graves, the whole works.



Alright. Can anyone provide links or references from human rights groups or independent observers? I'm well aware of human rights abuses in Iraq before the war, I'm just trying to get a better idea as to the extent of the danger pre vs post-war, especially in Fallujah.

Right now, I'm making an educated guess that conditions in Fallujah worsened substantially as a result of post war events.

Dead_Ringer

Dead_Ringer

I'm lost
September 2004

NOV 18, 2004 01:19 PM

googuse said:

Michael_J_Totten said:

Kbear said:
I'm confused. What do you mean by "before we even got there." Was Fallujah a Taliban-like hell before the war? Or were the insurgents only able to take control after the chaos following the war?


I mean before we got there last week.



This could have been done MONTHS ago, but Bush was too worried about getting elected and let most of the high level insurgents slip out. That place should have been locked down and swarming with troops from the get-go. Another example of his amazing lack of abilty to lead.



ding ding ding.

smithers_jones

smithers_jones

I'm lost
November 2003

NOV 18, 2004 01:24 PM

I’m not sure what funnier, your regurgitation of the “we had to destroy the city to save it” argument, or your moral posturing. I’m sure the Syrian press said precisely the same thing about the destruction ofHama.

[Edited on Nov 18, 2004 by smithers_jones]

josephene

josephene

USA
January 2004

NOV 18, 2004 02:00 PM

googuse said:

Michael_J_Totten said:

Kbear said:
I'm confused. What do you mean by "before we even got there." Was Fallujah a Taliban-like hell before the war? Or were the insurgents only able to take control after the chaos following the war?


I mean before we got there last week.



This could have been done MONTHS ago, but Bush was too worried about getting elected and let most of the high level insurgents slip out. That place should have been locked down and swarming with troops from the get-go. Another example of his amazing lack of abilty to lead.



Fallujah has been in the news for weeks now, including in the heat of the election. Special forces had been brought in months ago. The problem seems to be more with lack of military support in numbers and less about the battle plan.

vadge

vadge

Cleveland, OH
July 2004

NOV 18, 2004 02:02 PM

louys said:

Kbear said:
Following up on my previous post.. I'm trying to find some descriptions of everyday life in Fallujah before March 2003. Does anyone know of any web-based personal accounts of the city before the U.S.-led invasion?



Not first hand, but there's some background here.



Yeah.. I've read about most of this.. I've actually read a fair amount on the subject but I've read nothing arguing that Fallujah was a "Taliban-like hell before we even got there." Hence, my confusion.

lamdalamdalamda

lamdalamdalamda

Chicago, IL
February 2003

NOV 18, 2004 02:06 PM

i don't know how helpful this may be, but there were reports from u.s. soldiers about refugees from the city all summer long...

vadge

vadge

Cleveland, OH
July 2004

NOV 18, 2004 02:25 PM

lamdalamdalamda said:
i don't know how helpful this may be, but there were reports from u.s. soldiers about refugees from the city all summer long...



Yeah, but were there large numbers of refugees from the city *before the war started*?

I suppose I'm confused about the main point behind this post. Sure, life in Fallujah was hellish in the months prior to the recent "Battle for Fallujah." But we created the conditions for all of this by going to war in Iraq.

[Edited on Nov 18, 2004 by Kbear]

Vampirate

Vampirate

Durham, NC
October 2004

NOV 18, 2004 02:25 PM

socalsk1nhead said:

TheTimidFool said:

socalsk1nhead said:

TheTimidFool said:
*sigh* The joys of monotheistic society! Whohoo! blackeyed

[Edited on Nov 18, 2004 11:47AM]



Because polytheistic societies were paradise until monotheism moved in.



No, they weren't. But being that there was the idea of many Gods, there was a bit more give and take. There were war like gods yes. But there were also Gods to teach us about pacifism. Yes, there were Gods who demanded abstinence, but there were also Gods that spoke of sexual expression. For every male-centered deity, there was a feminine counterpart. Instead of a religious dictatorship, there was a religious senate if you will...Just my 2 cents. This has nothing to do with the topic, but oh well.



Maybe there was a balance within specific societies, but there was definitely issues between rival settlements. Just because the was order within a small populous, doesn't mean all was easy peasy. Especially if seperate settlements had seperate main dieties. A port city with an ocean diety, or an agricutural society with a rain or sun diety. Wars between these types of people broke out all the time. Kind of like present day situations but on a smaller scale.


Christianity, once it emerged as a real movement, separate from Judaism, set a whole new standard for religious intolerance. The Romans, notable for their broad tolerance of belief systems of all sorts (as long as everyone involved paid their taxes), are noted for singling out the Christians for persecution. Why? Because the Christians wouldn't get along with anybody else. In their view, you were either a Christian, or part of a massive pagan/jewish/heretical force allied against them.

Sure, religion had been invoked in countless conflicts before then, but not so much as a primary cause. Your sea-based city state warring with your agricultural city-state was after power, land, booty, or slaves. It was the "religions of The Book" that precipitated the holy wars.

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2 | 3

Next