TOPICS:
MAY 01, 2006 11:34 AM
Westley said:
Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand, and a Christian rebellion on the other. While that is how the Gospels portray him, historians insist that Pilate was known by his rough treatment of Jews in general, and was responsible for crucifying many Jews during his reign. (in lieu of typing out this same thought myself I cribbed this particular wording from Wikipedia)
I find this quote particularly interesting, and an apt expression of the myopia of Christians when they discuss the development of Christianity. There was no possibility of a "Christian rebellion" on any hand, given that there were no such things as Christians and Jesus's following at the time was insufficient for Pilate to be concerned about at all.
Until about the beginning of the 2nd Century CE, "Christianity" was a sect of Judaism. Jesus sought to reform Judaism, not start a new religion (Heb 9:10). It was only after these efforts at declaring Jesus the Messiah failed that the message began to be spread among Gentiles. In Acts 21:17-26 Paul - more than anyone responsible for the establishment of the Christian Church even took a Nazarite vow to prove to his critics that he was a Torah-observant Jew.
After the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, interest in a Messiah began to grow but there were two sects and in fact war of sorts broke out between them - this is what caused the break between the Nazarenes and other Jews. In the second century, theologians and church fathers became more concerned with "making the break" with anything Jewish, beginning to take an uncompromising posture of theological and political opposition. Anti Jewish sentiment changed New Testament interpretation. For instance:
- the promises of blessing to Israel in the Hebrew scriptures were now the exclusive property of the Church
- God has cursed and rejected Israel, and now the Church was the "true" or "new" Israel; and
- the Jews killed Jesus; all Jews everywhere forever were forever responsible for his death.
This to me, is what makes the whole of Gibson's S&M epic a total crock. There was no Jewish hated of Christians, or vice versa - it was all an internal political struggle. The Romans thought the whole lot were a pain in the ass.
MAY 01, 2006 12:20 PM
NickFaust said:
Westley said:
Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand, and a Christian rebellion on the other. While that is how the Gospels portray him, historians insist that Pilate was known by his rough treatment of Jews in general, and was responsible for crucifying many Jews during his reign. (in lieu of typing out this same thought myself I cribbed this particular wording from Wikipedia)
I find this quote particularly interesting, and an apt expression of the myopia of Christians when they discuss the development of Christianity. There was no possibility of a "Christian rebellion" on any hand, given that there were no such things as Christians and Jesus's following at the time was insufficient for Pilate to be concerned about at all.
Until about the beginning of the 2nd Century CE, "Christianity" was a sect of Judaism. Jesus sought to reform Judaism, not start a new religion (Heb 9:10). It was only after these efforts at declaring Jesus the Messiah failed that the message began to be spread among Gentiles. In Acts 21:17-26 Paul - more than anyone responsible for the establishment of the Christian Church even took a Nazarite vow to prove to his critics that he was a Torah-observant Jew.
After the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, interest in a Messiah began to grow but there were two sects and in fact war of sorts broke out between them - this is what caused the break between the Nazarenes and other Jews. In the second century, theologians and church fathers became more concerned with "making the break" with anything Jewish, beginning to take an uncompromising posture of theological and political opposition. Anti Jewish sentiment changed New Testament interpretation. For instance:
- the promises of blessing to Israel in the Hebrew scriptures were now the exclusive property of the Church
- God has cursed and rejected Israel, and now the Church was the "true" or "new" Israel; and
- the Jews killed Jesus; all Jews everywhere forever were forever responsible for his death.
This to me, is what makes the whole of Gibson's S&M epic a total crock. There was no Jewish hated of Christians, or vice versa - it was all an internal political struggle. The Romans thought the whole lot were a pain in the ass.
For the most part I tried to avoid the historical details and remain focused on what I believe is a deceptive if not entirely false notion: that Gibson's Passion & passion plays in general are scripturally correct.
Attempting to insert historical perspective on the Bible meets with a great deal of resistance among many. But, just to piggy back on this point, i would like to make this point about much of the Gospels, and specific to a scene in Gibson's film, the Gospel of Matthew. These books were aimed at communities. They were not attempting to write historical narratives for generations to come, they were attempting to recruit. When Matthew writes "His blood be upon us and upon our children" he is not condemning a race or religion of people for eternity, he is quite literally referring to the destruction of the temple as their punishment. Look what we did, and look what we got, sign here. No first century Jew would have rejected the Sanhedrin for a splinter group talking about things happening two thousand years from now. The synoptic Gospels are about the moment, as in the era they were written, as in several decades after the person who came to be recognized as Jesus was put to death. Gibson and dullard literalists around the world would like you to believe that the person who wrote this story was an actual eyewitness and that he was standing right there watching as Jesus was crucified and wrote it all down as soon as he got the chance. These are the same people who can not even come to understand that there WAS NO NATION OF ISRAEL WHEN THE EVENTS OF EXODUS TOOK PLACE, IT'S A GODDAMN EPIC COMBINING THE ORIGIN TRADITIONS OF ALL THE TRIBES THAT EVENTUALLY CAME TO FORM ISRAEL. The Jews understand this. Try explaining it to a Christian. So, you know, what can you do?
Ian Mckellen made a comment on Real Time this past weekend that really hit the point well. Something to the affect of being amused by the notion that so many Christians feel it necessary to take literally a book re-translated over and over about a man who regularly spoke in parables.
[Edited on May 01, 2006 by Westley]
MAY 01, 2006 12:38 PM
Westley said:
These books were aimed at communities. They were not attempting to write historical narratives for generations to come, they were attempting to recruit.
Exactly, which is what explains the contradictions between them. They were aimed at different audiences and thus chose to say different things about Jesus.
The Jews understand this. Try explaining it to a Christian. So, you know, what can you do?
I always just recommend a great book - The Closing of the Western Mind - it does a great and brief job explaining the details of the New Testament Apocrypha.
Ian Mckellen made a comment on Real Time this past weekend that really hit the point well. Something to the affect of being amused by the notion that so many Christians feel it necessary to take literally a book re-translated over and over about a man who regularly spoke in parables.
Saw that. Loved it.
[Edited on May 01, 2006 by Westley]
MAY 02, 2006 01:00 PM
This is a bit old, so forgive me. Ive been frantically writing papers and studying for my final exams. However, after casually checking in to see where this thread had gone, I figured I had a few responses to write:
Watch TheBoondockSaint's exclusive story on how Okapi/Keoki is lazy, has too much time on her hands, can't debate, and "spreads em" for $300! Observe Otoki's confusion while she tries to discover the insult hidden in the strange names for a full fifteen seconds before she realizes, in amazement, that by changing her name, TheBoondockSaint thought she was insulting her!
TheBoondockSaint said:
SNIP One is supposed to cite references and back up one's claims when it comes to a debate of this nature, there, Okapi.
You dislike the fact the NickFaust stated parts of the bible that should be common knowledge to you without quoting, yet you whine about anti-Xtian sentiment on SG without providing any links? Thats not hypocritical. Oh, and whats with changing my name? Are you five years old?
Is this your way of stepping in and saying that he can't finish this discussion for himself?
Not at all. I just found your claims rather hypocritical, and stated so.
What, is he paying you to fight his intellectual battles for him? If so, he should demand a refund. All you can do is swear at me; you aren't able to cite any quotes or give a logical argument against what I say scripturally, either. You aren't using ANYTHING to back up any of your claims. Just pure emotion, which is meaningless in an intellectual debate.
Hm, considering your resulting tirade full of personal attacks, it seems like you arent doing too well at reigning in your emotions, either. Religious fundamentalism is a topic which I am very passionate about, from being raised in a multi-cultural household, and discovering my own religious beliefs.
Onto your claims of discrimination:
The_Giving_Tree said:
And I'm so sick and tired of all of the anti-Christian sentiment on SG. If it were Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or any other religion as the target of such sentiment, it would probably be considered hate speech.
So apparently you missed all the threads arguing against muslim extremists, super-traditional Jewish practices, and the validity of buddism. What a well supported statement.
It must be nice to have the kind of free time to read every thread on SG, but some of us have real jobs.
When youve been a member of a site for a couple years, you can accumulate a hefty list of bookmarked threads. And for someone who is so busy, you sure have lengthy, painfully quoted threads
We all don't make $300 a photoset to lay around all day and spread 'em and get someone to photograph it. Looks and sounds like a sweet gig, though.
Hmm, $300 a day would be awesome if I had more than TWO photosets in my entire time on SG. Im a full-time student, and just recently cut down to ONE job instead of two alongside my schooling. By the way, have you looked at either of my photosets? Neither one of them involve me laying down, or spreading my legs. Oh, wait, you were trying to insult me (and, consequently, every SG who has been paid for a photoset). If I were easily hurt, Id say your above remark is supremely condescending, insulting, vulgar, and disrespectful. However, I found them hilarious in how presumptuous they are.
and unfortunately, these christians are the quiet ones. They don't usually make the news. They don't usually run around trying to take away sexual and civil rights of everyone else. If it bothers you so much, become an activist for more loving, christ-like christianity. Otherwise, you're not really doing much to change the more vivid perception of christians, which means you're letting that false image continue.
Which why I'm saying something here. Right now. At this very point in time. On SG! It's my own little form of protest. YOU, o wise one, didn't catch onto that????? ![]()
I guess my point was that, if you want to change the nations view on Christians, maybe bitching about it on a message board (where a majority of the posters dont hold that view of Christians,) isnt a very productive way to change peoples views.
Actually, I must admit my anti-FUNDAMENTALIST sentiment involves a small hope that all the fuckwads who feel that destroying people's lives in the name of THEIR "faith" is a great way to serve god (or themselves) will die a painful, ironic death. Religion is far different than race, gender, and sexual orientation because, for the most part, you can't choose to be one or the other, you're just born that way. Even if you choose to change your gender/whatever, that is still something that you ARE. Religion requires a set of beliefs. Being a white-supremacist requires a set of beliefs. If I don't have a problem with Judaism as it is now, but feel white supremacists should go ass-fuck each other with broken bottles, am I just being a discriminatory bitch who can't take the first step to accepting people? Or am I considering the merits of the beliefs of the two groups, and deciding whether or not I support their respective visions?
I don't dislike christ. I don't dislike all christians. I do dislike fundamentalists. Especially the ones who feel it is their duty to make sure it's illegal for me to fuck a guy in the ass with a strap-on.
Good to know where we can find you on Saturday evenings.
?
I do dislike fundamentalists. Especially the ones who feel it is their duty to make sure it's illegal for me to fuck a guy in the ass with a strap-on.
I'm a fundamentalist, and you JUST stereotyped me. You don't KNOW me. You just blew a hole wide open in your own argument.
I just stereotyped you? Personally? By giving an example of fundamentalists who wish to control my sex life? Did I say anything about Christians? Do you understand what is meant by fundamentalist? Really? OK then.
Furthermore, if you think that a person's life experiences, beliefs (not just religious, but beliefs and opinions in general), culture, and environment don't make up who a person is (or "WHO THEY ARE" as you said earlier) just as much as (if not more than) something like skin color, then there is literally no hope for you.
A person IS more than his or her skin color or gender or race - he or she is also the sum of his or her life experiences.
Except that ones opinions and beliefs, and how one interprets life experiences, can change over time. Gender, race, and sexuality (usually) dont. I never said beliefs dont shape a person, simply that beliefs can be changed.
So far, I've only counted ONE post that is actually negative towards all christianity. It is far-outnumbered by the other 40 or so arguing that there are all sorts of christians out there, many of whom aren't sucking Jerry Folwell's cock.
Perhaps you can only count to one? Again, I don't have nearly as much free time as you apparently do, but I will use the illustrious "search" function and find you a LOT of evidence that backs up my claim.
Another comment which is condescending and disrespectful. And I would think the numbers involved (1 and 40, the exact number of posts in this thread at the time was 46) would have indicated that I was speaking solely of comments (posts) in this thread, not the entire site. Seems almost everyone got that point. I must admit, some people didn't, yet none of these individuals took it as a challenge to find threads that criticized Chritianity. Remember, TBS (dammit, one letter off from a really predictable joke), pills are goooooood, pills are goooood.
snip It IS a step in the right direction as far as doing something about it is concerned, there, brainiac. This has definitely been a pivotal moment.
Excuse me, but you are getting defensive for personal attacks I supposedly aimed at you, and now I have counted THREE personal attacks you have leveled at me. You are definitely setting a wonderful example of respectful debate.
snip
I get into arguments with my friends and family all the time. I don't accept everything about them. But I still love them. You don't have to blindly accept every part of a person just because you're pals or blood.
To use your own eloquent phrase, "Fuck-a-doodle-doo for you." I personally don't care what you do in your free time. Although as you mentioned earlier, apparently it has to do with strap-ons and fucking guys in the ass. Everyone needs a hobby, I suppose.
You write this:
And all of my friends LOVE me and we never get into arguments about religion because we all love each other and accept each other for who we are.
and then dismiss me for explaining how I interact with my friends? Ok then.
Again, you have to concede to my statement about not being able to fully and coherently discuss a book that you haven't read, much less win an argument. I prefaced my statement with "I can't say whether you have or haven't read the Bible for sure, but you aren't acting as if you had."
[continues, implying she is better than me because she has read the Quran and has read the bible more times than I have, which apparently makes her much more able to debate whether or not Extremist Christians are fucking up our world]
I'll let you in on a little secret, honey. I was a teaching assistant for a World Religions class of over 300 freshmen and sophomores a few years back - during the semester of September 11th. I know a LOT about religion - not just my own, but all of them. I had to answer a lot of difficult questions for a lot of hurt and confused young students on that very day.
So, yeah, I do know what I'm talking about.
Really? Well, in that case, I obviously have no valid opinions worth posting on this website.
You on the other hand can't remain calm and present a logical, well thought out argument - you must automatically resort to personal attacks with no substance behind them. You resort to the use the art of misdirection, too, like your good buddy NickFaust.
I think that quote says it all.
You sure can say "fuck" a lot. Extensive vocabulary you've got there.
Havent you seen the Boondock Saints? Rocko proved that its actually a very versatile word.
Stick to nude modeling, Keoki. Your debate skills are crap. ![]()
Judging from peoples responses to most of my posts, Id have to disagree with you on that one.
Hey, look, a smart person:
malkav11 said:
Actually, she said that other religions came under fire quite regularly as well, and that up until then, only one post in this thread had been outright negative about Christianity. Which, from what I've seen, is true.
If anti-Christian sentiment is more prevalent, it's not really surprising given that it is by far the most prominent religion in America and the main one that is trying to enforce its doctrine in our nation's government and laws.
Regrettably, as Otoki pointed out, the people in question do not represent the majority of Christians (and, from the sound of it, do not represent you either, fundamentalist or no.) but are the ones that are most visible, thus generalizations.
.
Hey, look, a smart person being misinterpreted by a super-defensive person.
TheBoondockSaint said:
malkav11 said:
Actually, she said that other religions came under fire quite regularly as well, and that up until then, only one post in this thread had been outright negative about Christianity. Which, from what I've seen, is true.
Here is the gist of what you are saying to me when you say the above: It's not just Christians, it's all religions. If it's ALL religions and not just you, then it must be OK...right???
Youre reading too much into it. Hes simply trying to help you comprehend my point. My argument was that Christianity isnt the only religion taking heat on this site. I wasnt qualifying that fact.
malkav11 said: If anti-Christian sentiment is more prevalent, it's not really surprising given that it is by far the most prominent religion in America and the main one that is trying to enforce its doctrine in our nation's government and laws.
Here is what I take from the above paragraph:
[Proceeds to read too much into malkav11s keen observation, and accusing him of being a debate coward and guilty of avoiding the point, whatever that is now.]
Regrettably, as Otoki pointed out, the people in question do not represent the majority of Christians (and, from the sound of it, do not represent you either, fundamentalist or no.) but are the ones that are most visible, thus generalizations.
Here is what I take from the above paragraph:
oh, god.
Okay, YES, it's true, but people are ONLY making generalizations about the Christians who are visible, and it is okay to hate, slander, make fun of, and insult THEM because we don't agree with them and we're sure it's because they hated us first.
Um, yeah. I think its perfectly acceptable to make fun of/dislike people who consider feminists evil home-wreckers, gay marriage an abomination, gay sex an abomination (cmon, we all know gay sex is hot hot hot.), birth control shouldnt be allowed because it will increase pre-marital sex, and the new HPV vaccine that has been discovered (which will help prevent most cervical cancer in women) should not be allowed on the market because it will encourage female promiscuity. That last one courtesy of the AFA.
Hooraydiation tries to clear up some confusion:
TheBoondockSaint said:
Hooraydiation said:
If so, she was probably referring to posts within this thread alone rather than posts throughout the boards that have accumulated over several years.
Well, I saw a challenge in that statement. I saw a gauntlet thrown down. I picked it up. No harm in that...is there?
Of course not. There was no harm in you saying I spread my legs for a living, nor in implying that I was unintelligent or lazy. My friends and I had a good laugh at your expense.
Furthermore, I proved my point - in a calm, rational manner.
I think we laughed the most at that line.
I found ample proof to back up my claim, and I'm not the only person who feels this way.
Yeah. Look at all the research you did in your response to me. You informed yourself so well, you know I make a living off of my SG sets.
On anti-Semitism:
TheBoondockSaint said:
Hooraydiation said:
TheBoondockSaint said:
Keep in mind too, that most of what you are quoting, while of course part of the Bible, is also the Torah. The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. It is Hebrew Law, which was WAAAAAY before Christ was born.
So technically, anyone who has a problem with these things has a problem with Judaism, too.
Just a thought.
I don't see why anyone would be willing to criticize Christianity because of these verses but hesitant to criticize Judaism for the same reasons.
I do. When it's Christians, it's Christians. When it's Jews, well, you're wandering into anti-Semitic territory, which people seem quite a bit less eager to tread on.
Christians aren't a race; but Jews are considered to be a nation as well as a faith. A tradition; a culture.
Um, the only reluctance Ive found was in criticizing Jewish culture and, in some cases, the Jewish lifestyle. I havent found anyone squeamish about criticizing the Torah. Im sure not. My dad sure isnt. But then again, maybe thats because were both Jewish Athiests. No matter. Most people who criticize the Old testament know that it is the text that Jews adhere to (with varying strictness) in their faith. Doesnt seem to stop anyone on this site so far as I can tell.
Oh, gosh, look at cute little TheBoondockSaint with her emoticon, making all her insults, personal attacks, and misinterpretations A-OK:
TheBoondockSaint said:
malkav11 said:
TheBoondockSaint said:
And I'm so sick and tired of all of the anti-Christian sentiment on SG. If it were Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or any other religion as the target of such sentiment, it would probably be considered hate speech.
malkav11 said:
You sure seem to be claiming that Christianity is the only target of anti-religious sentiment on SG. I was saying "not true."...snip
I think I accidentally left out one word in that statement. It would probably have made more sense if it had read:
TheBoondockSaint said:
And I'm so sick and tired of all of the anti-Christian sentiment on SG. If it were Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or any other religion as the target of such EXTREME sentiment, it would probably be considered hate speech.
I left one word out of my argument, and I'm sorry - I should have been a little more clear.
But I still had to work six days this week, and I was at work when I wrote that. Sometimes it's hard to type all this stuff out when you're on your work computer, know what I mean? You have to stop sometimes to do other things, you have to minimize the window to make sure no one else can see what you're typing sometimes...I'm sure you know how it is.
Well gosh, stop the presses! You worked six days in one week! Golly-gee, well just let all the snarky comments slip right by, then!
Hooraydiation tries to make me seem way more chill than I actually am:
Hooraydiation said:
What really amazes me is how you seem to have developed a kind of rivalry with someone (such that you imagine she has outright CHALLENGED you) when she has made only one comment in this thread at all and likely didn't even bother to stick around long enough to see your response.
TheBoondockSaints said: To her, this discussion is probably nothing - she will most likely forget about it tomorrow. She isn't a Christian so she doesn't really have any reason to argue her point the way that I do. I am a Christian. It means a LOT to me, where it most likely means little to nothing to her. See the difference?
Wow, you totally read me. You know exactly what is going through my head. My absence had nothing to do with the fact that I am bogged down in six final projects, but had everything to do with the fact that only a Xtian can care about this topic. You have proven your amazing skills of perception.
One of the spoilers is being a douchebag.
[Edited on May 03, 2006 by Otoki]
MAY 02, 2006 01:41 PM
^^
Speaking of final papers, that post had a much higher word count than any of mine.
MAY 02, 2006 04:24 PM
The behavior of people on this thread reminds me why I dislike the majority of people that claim to be christians.
Where is the "turn the other cheek, lover thy neighbour" etc..etc... stuff..? Instead we get personal insults galore, and gauntlet throwing...
Most buddhists are more christian, than most christians in my experience.
Edit..
I just re-read this and started laughing.. Lover thy neighbour....Erm wait that is polyamory, not christianity..sorry, I get confused on occasion.
[Edited on May 02, 2006 by joker_c86]
MAY 02, 2006 04:25 PM
Hmm... my Aunt is a Christian and almost always votes a straight democratic ticket. Same for my Grandmother. Primarily, their concern is for the lower and middle class and getting people (primarily minorities, and the handicapped) the help they need. Although they may or may not agree with some democrats stances on abortion and homosexuality, they are still democrats. As a matter of fact, not all senators and representatives affiliated with the democratic party support the party's stance on abortion and homosexuality.
Personally, I used to be a liberal Christian- I was completely for homosexual marriage and rights, I didn't accept the scripture I was spoon-fed in church, I was well aware of the flaws and misinterpretations in the Bible. I believed in Jesus Christ 110% but eventually got fed up with the dogma. It's not at all accurate to paint the entire Christian community with a broad "extreme religious right" brush. Nor is it accurate to paint the entire Democratic Party with an "uber liberal" brush. These are groups made up of individuals with numerous very different mindsets.
[Edited on May 02, 2006 by starchild228]
MAY 02, 2006 08:08 PM
grahf said:
^^
Speaking of final papers, that post had a much higher word count than any of mine.
I'm in paper mode. Once I'm there, I write a bajillion words a minute. Without caffeine. It's my only talent in Academia.






Westley
Vatican City
April 2004
MAY 01, 2006 11:01 AM