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Westley

Westley

Vatican City
April 2004

MAY 01, 2006 11:01 AM

TheBoondockSaint said:
Well, take the movie "The Passion of the Christ." Scripturally, it was correct - but did you hear the buzz about how anti-Semitic it was, anyway? It was very controversial before it came out, and when Christians saw it, I would say probably 99.6% were completely fine with it.



TheBoondockSaint said:

1st of all, I was under the impression that the movie drew more from the so-called "Passion Plays" than it did from the scriptures themselves. Which book of the Bible describes the crucifixion in excruciating detail, again?



Matthew, actually. Chapter 27, specifically. See, that's the problem. So many people say "I was under the impression that..." or "I heard that..." But here you go. Excruciating detail and all.

Matthew 27
1When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
6And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
9Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
10And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
12And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
13Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
14And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.
15Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.
16And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.
17Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?
18For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.
19When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
20But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
21The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.
22Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
26Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
27Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
28And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
29And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
30And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.
31And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
32And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
33And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,
34They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
35And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
36And sitting down they watched him there;
37And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
38Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
39And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
55And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.
57When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
58He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
59And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
61And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
62Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
65Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
66So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.


What a simplistic angle. Because the passion film was biblically accurate in some components, it was entirely biblical? How silly.

At the time this film came out, I frequently taught a Bible as Literature class(as a GA).This is a list of interpolations I scribbled down for my lecture, with additions where students, colleagues and/or other resources brought them to my attention. Further research, done by others, reveals that the majority of them were likely borrowed from The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is partially based on the Gospel accounts(the other more prominent part it is based upon were the delusional ramblings of a mentally disturbed anti-semite nun), but is without a doubt extra-biblical and absolutely non-canonical.

******
- Satan torments Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane
- Mary wakes up, sensing Jesus’s arrest
- Soldiers throw Jesus off a bridge
- Jesus is abused when before the priests
- Jesus, as a young carpenter, is at home with Mary
- During court scene, Mary prays, “It has begun Lord. So be it.”
- After denying Jesus three times, Peter runs to Mary, weeping and calling her “Mother.”
- Satan and his minions torment Judas
- When Jesus is first brought before Pontius Pilate, Pilate beholds his bloody, bruised condition and asks members of the Sanhedrin (the high council of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem) if they always beat prisoners prior to trial
- The Bible references Pilate's wife only once, and not by name; she sends her husband a message about Jesus saying, "Have nothing to do with this righteous man--I have suffered much in a dream because of him." In the film, Pilate and his wife have several conversations about what he should do.
- Effeminate Herod is depicted amidst cushions
- Effeminate Herod calls Jesus a fool and commands that Jesus be given a fool’s homage
- Jesus is scourged against a pillar in the center of a courtyard. The scourging culminates with the use of chains with barbs that tear chunks off his back. Jesus is then rotated so the soldiers can scourge the other side. Mary is prominent throughout the scene
- Simon of Cyrene, who helps Jesus carry the cross and puts his arm around him, is debased, treated poorly by a Roman soldier, and called Jew with a sneer
- Pilate’s wife hands white linens to Mary, who uses these to wipe Jesus’s blood from the floor
- Mary Magdalene recalls Jesus preventing her from being stoned and writing on the ground
- When nailed to the cross, after the first hand is nailed, Jesus’ other arm is stretched out with a sickening crunch to reach the hole provided for the nail. The soldiers also subject Jesus to more agony as they stretch his body out to the wooden footrest that they placed too low.
- Mary cries, “Flesh of my flesh, heart of my heart, my son, let me die with you.”
- A soldier is showered by Jesus’ blood after piercing His side
- And of course, Satan, complete with the idiotic 13 year old Fangoria reading fanboy representation of Satan, with demon baby accessory, being at the crucifixion
- Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand, and a Christian rebellion on the other. While that is how the Gospels portray him, historians insist that Pilate was known by his rough treatment of Jews in general, and was responsible for crucifying many Jews during his reign. (in lieu of typing out this same thought myself I cribbed this particular wording from Wikipedia)
- The High Priest is shown as if he a were a member in good standing of the Jewish community; historians note that the Jews were not allowed to appoint their own High Priest according to Biblical law, and that the High Priest at the time was in the service of the Roman government. (in lieu of typing out this same thought myself I cribbed this particular wording from Wikipedia)
******

Gibson, in his script, picked and chose from among all four gospels, the Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ(which contains almost all of the non-biblical references listed above), The Gospel of the Ebionites(non-Biblical), The Gospel of Peter, The Stations of the Cross, and I imagine several other sources that I have not been able to identify - an element here, an instance there - creating from his montage a fifth "gospel" that has never existed. The more benign Pilate appears in the movie, the more malicious the Jews are. There are many examples in the film of a preposterous dialectic: the bad Jews and the good Romans. When the Temple police arrest Jesus, Mary Magdalene turns to the Romans as if they were the policemen on the block, benign protectors of the public order. The idea of a Jewish woman turning to Roman soldiers for help is ridiculous.

Your claim that the film is "Scripturally correct" rings as hollow as your dismissal of the perceived anti-semitic elements contained within. The Bible does not hold shots of a snarling, near orgasmic Caiaphas watching Jesus's prolonged torture. Neither does it linger on a clearly upset, pained Pontius Pilate, regretting giving in to the cruel, villainous, bloodthirsty people of Jerusalem. Or Pilate's wife being haunted by her husband's action/inaction. The film is based on the Gospels, along with several other sources, but that hardly makes it scripturally accurate. No first-century person, whether victim or victimizer, ever laid eyes on a cross like the 8 ft. x 15 ft. one lugged around Gibson's Jerusalem. That cross, like the nails "through" Caviezel's palms, owes more to the conventions of medieval Christian art than to first-century Roman executions. Even if the film were entirely "Scripturally correct" it would still be open to Gibson's narrative decisions because the Gospels are inconsistent. Simon is not there to assist Jesus carrying the cross in the Gospel of John. What is the litmus test for deciding to side with the Synoptics over John? I guess it can be both scripturally correct and incorrect all at once.

All of the factually interpretive elements aside, I am infinitely more disturbed by the archaic middle age(literally) theology behind Passion plays. There are many ways of putting Jesus at risk and making us feel his suffering. Resorting to horse whipping for 2 hours is the most base and meaningless way that I can come up with off the top of my head. The Crucifixion has been dramatized with a curious fixation on the technical details—an arm pulled out of its socket, huge nails hammered into hands, with Caviezel jumping after each whack. Gibson lingers on violence because physical suffering is the best way for his dull brain to identify with Jesus's sacrifice. It is a spiritually sophomoric way of viewing the sacrifice, and it is one that, when viewed in total isolation(sans the ministry of Jesus) comes off as needlessly simplistic.

As usual, The Onion is right on the money.
Jesus Demands Creative Control Over Next Movie

[Edited on May 01, 2006 by Westley]

NickFaust

NickFaust

USA
April 2004

MAY 01, 2006 11:34 AM

Westley said:
Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand, and a Christian rebellion on the other. While that is how the Gospels portray him, historians insist that Pilate was known by his rough treatment of Jews in general, and was responsible for crucifying many Jews during his reign. (in lieu of typing out this same thought myself I cribbed this particular wording from Wikipedia)



I find this quote particularly interesting, and an apt expression of the myopia of Christians when they discuss the development of Christianity. There was no possibility of a "Christian rebellion" on any hand, given that there were no such things as Christians and Jesus's following at the time was insufficient for Pilate to be concerned about at all.

Until about the beginning of the 2nd Century CE, "Christianity" was a sect of Judaism. Jesus sought to reform Judaism, not start a new religion (Heb 9:10). It was only after these efforts at declaring Jesus the Messiah failed that the message began to be spread among Gentiles. In Acts 21:17-26 Paul - more than anyone responsible for the establishment of the Christian Church even took a Nazarite vow to prove to his critics that he was a Torah-observant Jew.

After the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, interest in a Messiah began to grow but there were two sects and in fact war of sorts broke out between them - this is what caused the break between the Nazarenes and other Jews. In the second century, theologians and church fathers became more concerned with "making the break" with anything Jewish, beginning to take an uncompromising posture of theological and political opposition. Anti Jewish sentiment changed New Testament interpretation. For instance:

- the promises of blessing to Israel in the Hebrew scriptures were now the exclusive property of the Church
- God has cursed and rejected Israel, and now the Church was the "true" or "new" Israel; and
- the Jews killed Jesus; all Jews everywhere forever were forever responsible for his death.

This to me, is what makes the whole of Gibson's S&M epic a total crock. There was no Jewish hated of Christians, or vice versa - it was all an internal political struggle. The Romans thought the whole lot were a pain in the ass.

Westley

Westley

Vatican City
April 2004

MAY 01, 2006 12:20 PM

NickFaust said:

Westley said:
Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand, and a Christian rebellion on the other. While that is how the Gospels portray him, historians insist that Pilate was known by his rough treatment of Jews in general, and was responsible for crucifying many Jews during his reign. (in lieu of typing out this same thought myself I cribbed this particular wording from Wikipedia)



I find this quote particularly interesting, and an apt expression of the myopia of Christians when they discuss the development of Christianity. There was no possibility of a "Christian rebellion" on any hand, given that there were no such things as Christians and Jesus's following at the time was insufficient for Pilate to be concerned about at all.

Until about the beginning of the 2nd Century CE, "Christianity" was a sect of Judaism. Jesus sought to reform Judaism, not start a new religion (Heb 9:10). It was only after these efforts at declaring Jesus the Messiah failed that the message began to be spread among Gentiles. In Acts 21:17-26 Paul - more than anyone responsible for the establishment of the Christian Church even took a Nazarite vow to prove to his critics that he was a Torah-observant Jew.

After the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, interest in a Messiah began to grow but there were two sects and in fact war of sorts broke out between them - this is what caused the break between the Nazarenes and other Jews. In the second century, theologians and church fathers became more concerned with "making the break" with anything Jewish, beginning to take an uncompromising posture of theological and political opposition. Anti Jewish sentiment changed New Testament interpretation. For instance:

- the promises of blessing to Israel in the Hebrew scriptures were now the exclusive property of the Church
- God has cursed and rejected Israel, and now the Church was the "true" or "new" Israel; and
- the Jews killed Jesus; all Jews everywhere forever were forever responsible for his death.

This to me, is what makes the whole of Gibson's S&M epic a total crock. There was no Jewish hated of Christians, or vice versa - it was all an internal political struggle. The Romans thought the whole lot were a pain in the ass.


For the most part I tried to avoid the historical details and remain focused on what I believe is a deceptive if not entirely false notion: that Gibson's Passion & passion plays in general are scripturally correct.

Attempting to insert historical perspective on the Bible meets with a great deal of resistance among many. But, just to piggy back on this point, i would like to make this point about much of the Gospels, and specific to a scene in Gibson's film, the Gospel of Matthew. These books were aimed at communities. They were not attempting to write historical narratives for generations to come, they were attempting to recruit. When Matthew writes "His blood be upon us and upon our children" he is not condemning a race or religion of people for eternity, he is quite literally referring to the destruction of the temple as their punishment. Look what we did, and look what we got, sign here. No first century Jew would have rejected the Sanhedrin for a splinter group talking about things happening two thousand years from now. The synoptic Gospels are about the moment, as in the era they were written, as in several decades after the person who came to be recognized as Jesus was put to death. Gibson and dullard literalists around the world would like you to believe that the person who wrote this story was an actual eyewitness and that he was standing right there watching as Jesus was crucified and wrote it all down as soon as he got the chance. These are the same people who can not even come to understand that there WAS NO NATION OF ISRAEL WHEN THE EVENTS OF EXODUS TOOK PLACE, IT'S A GODDAMN EPIC COMBINING THE ORIGIN TRADITIONS OF ALL THE TRIBES THAT EVENTUALLY CAME TO FORM ISRAEL. The Jews understand this. Try explaining it to a Christian. So, you know, what can you do?

Ian Mckellen made a comment on Real Time this past weekend that really hit the point well. Something to the affect of being amused by the notion that so many Christians feel it necessary to take literally a book re-translated over and over about a man who regularly spoke in parables.

[Edited on May 01, 2006 by Westley]

NickFaust

NickFaust

USA
April 2004

MAY 01, 2006 12:38 PM

Westley said:
These books were aimed at communities. They were not attempting to write historical narratives for generations to come, they were attempting to recruit.



Exactly, which is what explains the contradictions between them. They were aimed at different audiences and thus chose to say different things about Jesus.

The Jews understand this. Try explaining it to a Christian. So, you know, what can you do?



I always just recommend a great book - The Closing of the Western Mind - it does a great and brief job explaining the details of the New Testament Apocrypha.

Ian Mckellen made a comment on Real Time this past weekend that really hit the point well. Something to the affect of being amused by the notion that so many Christians feel it necessary to take literally a book re-translated over and over about a man who regularly spoke in parables.



Saw that. Loved it.

[Edited on May 01, 2006 by Westley]

Otoki

Otoki

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

MAY 02, 2006 01:00 PM

This is a bit old, so forgive me. I’ve been frantically writing papers and studying for my final exams. However, after casually checking in to see where this thread had gone, I figured I had a few responses to write:

Watch TheBoondockSaint's exclusive story on how Okapi/Keoki is lazy, has too much time on her hands, can't debate, and "spreads em" for $300! Observe Otoki's confusion while she tries to discover the insult hidden in the strange names for a full fifteen seconds before she realizes, in amazement, that by changing her name, TheBoondockSaint thought she was insulting her!

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

TheBoondockSaint said:
SNIP One is supposed to cite references and back up one's claims when it comes to a debate of this nature, there, Okapi.


You dislike the fact the NickFaust stated parts of the bible that should be common knowledge to you without quoting, yet you whine about anti-Xtian sentiment on SG without providing any links? That’s not hypocritical. Oh, and what’s with changing my name? Are you five years old?

Is this your way of stepping in and saying that he can't finish this discussion for himself?


Not at all. I just found your claims rather hypocritical, and stated so.

What, is he paying you to fight his intellectual battles for him? If so, he should demand a refund. All you can do is swear at me; you aren't able to cite any quotes or give a logical argument against what I say scripturally, either. You aren't using ANYTHING to back up any of your claims. Just pure emotion, which is meaningless in an intellectual debate.


Hm, considering your resulting tirade full of personal attacks, it seems like you aren’t doing too well at reigning in your emotions, either. Religious fundamentalism is a topic which I am very passionate about, from being raised in a multi-cultural household, and discovering my own religious beliefs.


Onto your claims of discrimination:

The_Giving_Tree said:
And I'm so sick and tired of all of the anti-Christian sentiment on SG. If it were Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or any other religion as the target of such sentiment, it would probably be considered hate speech.


So apparently you missed all the threads arguing against muslim extremists, super-traditional Jewish practices, and the validity of buddism. What a well supported statement.


It must be nice to have the kind of free time to read every thread on SG, but some of us have real jobs.


When you’ve been a member of a site for a couple years, you can accumulate a hefty list of bookmarked threads. And for someone who is so busy, you sure have lengthy, painfully quoted threads

We all don't make $300 a photoset to lay around all day and spread 'em and get someone to photograph it. Looks and sounds like a sweet gig, though.


Hmm, $300 a day would be awesome if I had more than TWO photosets in my entire time on SG. I’m a full-time student, and just recently cut down to ONE job instead of two alongside my schooling. By the way, have you looked at either of my photosets? Neither one of them involve me laying down, or spreading my legs. Oh, wait, you were trying to insult me (and, consequently, every SG who has been paid for a photoset). If I were easily hurt, I’d say your above remark is supremely condescending, insulting, vulgar, and disrespectful. However, I found them hilarious in how presumptuous they are.


…and unfortunately, these christians are the quiet ones. They don't usually make the news. They don't usually run around trying to take away sexual and civil rights of everyone else. If it bothers you so much, become an activist for more loving, christ-like christianity. Otherwise, you're not really doing much to change the more vivid perception of christians, which means you're letting that false image continue.


Which why I'm saying something here. Right now. At this very point in time. On SG! It's my own little form of protest. YOU, o wise one, didn't catch onto that????? mad


I guess my point was that, if you want to change the nation’s view on Christians, maybe bitching about it on a message board (where a majority of the posters don’t hold that view of Christians,) isn’t a very productive way to change people’s views.


Actually, I must admit my anti-FUNDAMENTALIST sentiment involves a small hope that all the fuckwads who feel that destroying people's lives in the name of THEIR "faith" is a great way to serve god (or themselves) will die a painful, ironic death. Religion is far different than race, gender, and sexual orientation because, for the most part, you can't choose to be one or the other, you're just born that way. Even if you choose to change your gender/whatever, that is still something that you ARE. Religion requires a set of beliefs. Being a white-supremacist requires a set of beliefs. If I don't have a problem with Judaism as it is now, but feel white supremacists should go ass-fuck each other with broken bottles, am I just being a discriminatory bitch who can't take the first step to accepting people? Or am I considering the merits of the beliefs of the two groups, and deciding whether or not I support their respective visions?
I don't dislike christ. I don't dislike all christians. I do dislike fundamentalists. Especially the ones who feel it is their duty to make sure it's illegal for me to fuck a guy in the ass with a strap-on.



Good to know where we can find you on Saturday evenings.


?


I do dislike fundamentalists. Especially the ones who feel it is their duty to make sure it's illegal for me to fuck a guy in the ass with a strap-on.



I'm a fundamentalist, and you JUST stereotyped me. You don't KNOW me. You just blew a hole wide open in your own argument.


I just stereotyped you? Personally? By giving an example of fundamentalists who wish to control my sex life? Did I say anything about Christians? Do you understand what is meant by fundamentalist? Really? OK then.

Furthermore, if you think that a person's life experiences, beliefs (not just religious, but beliefs and opinions in general), culture, and environment don't make up who a person is (or "WHO THEY ARE" as you said earlier) just as much as (if not more than) something like skin color, then there is literally no hope for you.

A person IS more than his or her skin color or gender or race - he or she is also the sum of his or her life experiences.


Except that one’s opinions and beliefs, and how one interprets life experiences, can change over time. Gender, race, and sexuality (usually) don’t. I never said beliefs don’t shape a person, simply that beliefs can be changed.


So far, I've only counted ONE post that is actually negative towards all christianity. It is far-outnumbered by the other 40 or so arguing that there are all sorts of christians out there, many of whom aren't sucking Jerry Folwell's cock.



Perhaps you can only count to one? Again, I don't have nearly as much free time as you apparently do, but I will use the illustrious "search" function and find you a LOT of evidence that backs up my claim.


Another comment which is condescending and disrespectful. And I would think the numbers involved (1 and 40, the exact number of posts in this thread at the time was 46) would have indicated that I was speaking solely of comments (posts) in this thread, not the entire site. Seems almost everyone got that point. I must admit, some people didn't, yet none of these individuals took it as a challenge to find threads that criticized Chritianity. Remember, TBS (dammit, one letter off from a really predictable joke), pills are goooooood, pills are goooood.

snip It IS a step in the right direction as far as doing something about it is concerned, there, brainiac. This has definitely been a pivotal moment.


Excuse me, but you are getting defensive for personal attacks I supposedly aimed at you, and now I have counted THREE personal attacks you have leveled at me. You are definitely setting a wonderful example of respectful debate.


snip
I get into arguments with my friends and family all the time. I don't accept everything about them. But I still love them. You don't have to blindly accept every part of a person just because you're pals or blood.



To use your own eloquent phrase, "Fuck-a-doodle-doo for you." I personally don't care what you do in your free time. Although as you mentioned earlier, apparently it has to do with strap-ons and fucking guys in the ass. Everyone needs a hobby, I suppose.


You write this:

And all of my friends LOVE me and we never get into arguments about religion because we all love each other and accept each other for who we are.

and then dismiss me for explaining how I interact with my friends? Ok then.


Again, you have to concede to my statement about not being able to fully and coherently discuss a book that you haven't read, much less win an argument. I prefaced my statement with "I can't say whether you have or haven't read the Bible for sure, but you aren't acting as if you had."
[continues, implying she is better than me because she has read the Qu’ran and has read the bible more times than I have, which apparently makes her much more able to debate whether or not Extremist Christians are fucking up our world]
I'll let you in on a little secret, honey. I was a teaching assistant for a World Religions class of over 300 freshmen and sophomores a few years back - during the semester of September 11th. I know a LOT about religion - not just my own, but all of them. I had to answer a lot of difficult questions for a lot of hurt and confused young students on that very day.

So, yeah, I do know what I'm talking about.


Really? Well, in that case, I obviously have no valid opinions worth posting on this website.

You on the other hand can't remain calm and present a logical, well thought out argument - you must automatically resort to personal attacks with no substance behind them. You resort to the use the art of misdirection, too, like your good buddy NickFaust.


I think that quote says it all.

You sure can say "fuck" a lot. Extensive vocabulary you've got there.


Haven’t you seen the Boondock Saints? Rocko proved that it’s actually a very versatile word.

Stick to nude modeling, Keoki. Your debate skills are crap. whatever

Judging from people’s responses to most of my posts, I’d have to disagree with you on that one.



Hey, look, a smart person:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

malkav11 said:
Actually, she said that other religions came under fire quite regularly as well, and that up until then, only one post in this thread had been outright negative about Christianity. Which, from what I've seen, is true.

If anti-Christian sentiment is more prevalent, it's not really surprising given that it is by far the most prominent religion in America and the main one that is trying to enforce its doctrine in our nation's government and laws.

Regrettably, as Otoki pointed out, the people in question do not represent the majority of Christians (and, from the sound of it, do not represent you either, fundamentalist or no.) but are the ones that are most visible, thus generalizations.


.



Hey, look, a smart person being misinterpreted by a super-defensive person.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

TheBoondockSaint said:

malkav11 said:
Actually, she said that other religions came under fire quite regularly as well, and that up until then, only one post in this thread had been outright negative about Christianity. Which, from what I've seen, is true.



Here is the gist of what you are saying to me when you say the above: It's not just Christians, it's all religions. If it's ALL religions and not just you, then it must be OK...right???


You’re reading too much into it. He’s simply trying to help you comprehend my point. My argument was that Christianity isn’t the only religion taking heat on this site. I wasn’t qualifying that fact.


malkav11 said: If anti-Christian sentiment is more prevalent, it's not really surprising given that it is by far the most prominent religion in America and the main one that is trying to enforce its doctrine in our nation's government and laws.



Here is what I take from the above paragraph:
[Proceeds to read too much into malkav11’s keen observation, and accusing him of being a debate coward and guilty of avoiding “the point”, whatever that is now.]




Regrettably, as Otoki pointed out, the people in question do not represent the majority of Christians (and, from the sound of it, do not represent you either, fundamentalist or no.) but are the ones that are most visible, thus generalizations.



Here is what I take from the above paragraph:

oh, god.

Okay, YES, it's true, but people are ONLY making generalizations about the Christians who are visible, and it is okay to hate, slander, make fun of, and insult THEM because we don't agree with them and we're sure it's because they hated us first.


Um, yeah. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to make fun of/dislike people who consider feminists evil home-wreckers, gay marriage an abomination, gay sex an abomination (c’mon, we all know gay sex is hot hot hot.), birth control shouldn’t be allowed because it will increase pre-marital sex, and the new HPV vaccine that has been discovered (which will help prevent most cervical cancer in women) should not be allowed on the market because it will encourage female promiscuity. That last one courtesy of the AFA.




Hooraydiation tries to clear up some confusion:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

TheBoondockSaint said:

Hooraydiation said:
If so, she was probably referring to posts within this thread alone rather than posts throughout the boards that have accumulated over several years.



Well, I saw a challenge in that statement. I saw a gauntlet thrown down. I picked it up. No harm in that...is there?


Of course not. There was no harm in you saying I spread my legs for a living, nor in implying that I was unintelligent or lazy. My friends and I had a good laugh at your expense.

Furthermore, I proved my point - in a calm, rational manner.

I think we laughed the most at that line.

I found ample proof to back up my claim, and I'm not the only person who feels this way.


Yeah. Look at all the research you did in your response to me. You informed yourself so well, you know I make a living off of my SG sets.



On anti-Semitism:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

TheBoondockSaint said:

Hooraydiation said:

TheBoondockSaint said:
Keep in mind too, that most of what you are quoting, while of course part of the Bible, is also the Torah. The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. It is Hebrew Law, which was WAAAAAY before Christ was born.

So technically, anyone who has a problem with these things has a problem with Judaism, too.

Just a thought.


I don't see why anyone would be willing to criticize Christianity because of these verses but hesitant to criticize Judaism for the same reasons.


I do. When it's Christians, it's Christians. When it's Jews, well, you're wandering into anti-Semitic territory, which people seem quite a bit less eager to tread on.

Christians aren't a race; but Jews are considered to be a nation as well as a faith. A tradition; a culture.


Um, the only reluctance I’ve found was in criticizing Jewish culture and, in some cases, the Jewish “lifestyle”. I haven’t found anyone squeamish about criticizing the Torah. I’m sure not. My dad sure isn’t. But then again, maybe that’s because we’re both Jewish Athiests. No matter. Most people who criticize the Old testament know that it is the text that Jews adhere to (with varying strictness) in their faith. Doesn’t seem to stop anyone on this site so far as I can tell.



Oh, gosh, look at cute little TheBoondockSaint with her emoticon, making all her insults, personal attacks, and misinterpretations A-OK:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

TheBoondockSaint said:

malkav11 said:

TheBoondockSaint said:
And I'm so sick and tired of all of the anti-Christian sentiment on SG. If it were Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or any other religion as the target of such sentiment, it would probably be considered hate speech.

malkav11 said:
You sure seem to be claiming that Christianity is the only target of anti-religious sentiment on SG. I was saying "not true."...snip



I think I accidentally left out one word in that statement. It would probably have made more sense if it had read:

TheBoondockSaint said:
And I'm so sick and tired of all of the anti-Christian sentiment on SG. If it were Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or any other religion as the target of such EXTREME sentiment, it would probably be considered hate speech.



I left one word out of my argument, and I'm sorry - I should have been a little more clear.

But I still had to work six days this week, and I was at work when I wrote that. Sometimes it's hard to type all this stuff out when you're on your work computer, know what I mean? You have to stop sometimes to do other things, you have to minimize the window to make sure no one else can see what you're typing sometimes...I'm sure you know how it is. tongue


Well gosh, stop the presses! You worked six days in one week! Golly-gee, we’ll just let all the snarky comments slip right by, then!



Hooraydiation tries to make me seem way more chill than I actually am:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Hooraydiation said:
What really amazes me is how you seem to have developed a kind of rivalry with someone (such that you imagine she has outright CHALLENGED you) when she has made only one comment in this thread at all and likely didn't even bother to stick around long enough to see your response.


TheBoondockSaints said: To her, this discussion is probably nothing - she will most likely forget about it tomorrow. She isn't a Christian so she doesn't really have any reason to argue her point the way that I do. I am a Christian. It means a LOT to me, where it most likely means little to nothing to her. See the difference?


Wow, you totally read me. You know exactly what is going through my head. My absence had nothing to do with the fact that I am bogged down in six final projects, but had everything to do with the fact that only a Xtian can care about this topic. You have proven your amazing skills of perception.



One of the spoilers is being a douchebag.

[Edited on May 03, 2006 by Otoki]

grahf

grahf

New York, NY
September 2002

MAY 02, 2006 01:41 PM

^^
Speaking of final papers, that post had a much higher word count than any of mine.

joker_

joker_

Minneapolis, MN
October 2005

MAY 02, 2006 04:24 PM

The behavior of people on this thread reminds me why I dislike the majority of people that claim to be christians.

Where is the "turn the other cheek, lover thy neighbour" etc..etc... stuff..? Instead we get personal insults galore, and gauntlet throwing...

Most buddhists are more christian, than most christians in my experience.

Edit..

I just re-read this and started laughing.. Lover thy neighbour....Erm wait that is polyamory, not christianity..sorry, I get confused on occasion.

[Edited on May 02, 2006 by joker_c86]

starchild228

starchild228

Marshalltown, IA
July 2005

MAY 02, 2006 04:25 PM

Hmm... my Aunt is a Christian and almost always votes a straight democratic ticket. Same for my Grandmother. Primarily, their concern is for the lower and middle class and getting people (primarily minorities, and the handicapped) the help they need. Although they may or may not agree with some democrats stances on abortion and homosexuality, they are still democrats. As a matter of fact, not all senators and representatives affiliated with the democratic party support the party's stance on abortion and homosexuality.
Personally, I used to be a liberal Christian- I was completely for homosexual marriage and rights, I didn't accept the scripture I was spoon-fed in church, I was well aware of the flaws and misinterpretations in the Bible. I believed in Jesus Christ 110% but eventually got fed up with the dogma. It's not at all accurate to paint the entire Christian community with a broad "extreme religious right" brush. Nor is it accurate to paint the entire Democratic Party with an "uber liberal" brush. These are groups made up of individuals with numerous very different mindsets.

[Edited on May 02, 2006 by starchild228]

Otoki

Otoki

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

MAY 02, 2006 08:08 PM

grahf said:
^^
Speaking of final papers, that post had a much higher word count than any of mine.


I'm in paper mode. Once I'm there, I write a bajillion words a minute. Without caffeine. It's my only talent in Academia.

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