Thistle said:
Do you have any suggestions for integrating such a law into our existing Constitutional rights and all our other federal employment rights?
I'm not sure the practicality question is really worthwhile here given how quickly it leads to, "This argument is being had on a porn site, none of this matters."
But hell, I'll give something similar a shot - create a "protected activity" clause to go alongside "protected status" and add "expression" to that list.
Thistle said:
Uh, no. My assertion is that she was representing her employer so there's even less reason not to fire her. Earlier in the thread people argued that if someone isn't directly representing their employer they shouldn't be fired for unpopular speech, if I recall correctly.
And this would qualify, I understand, but the position opposite to the one I'm arguing seems to be:
Sal said:
I believe it should be an employers right to say "you know what, this person is an asshole, regardless of their work performance I no longer wish to associate myself or this business with them" and then be able to let that person go.
That would seem to say that it's irrelevant whether she was on the clock or not. My point in my reply to you is that the company would likely receive the exact same pressure they're receiving now, and apparently should feel free to fire her anyway - as in the Amanda Todd case. The specifics of this case might not match exactly the broader point I'd like to make, and I apologize for that. I can only orchestrate elaborate scenarios to back up my arguments to a certain degree, unfortunately.
The outrage over this thing (not necessarily coming from this forum) reminds me of this.
dholokov said:
To go back to the Amanda Todd guy, he doesn't work in an "at will" jurisdiction. Canada is "just cause", if you fire someone without a good enough reason you have to give them $ representing reasonable notice (up to two years, depending on factors like how old they are how long they worked there).
I like the guy's chances. And there'd be pretty much no chance of firing the girl yelling in the cemetary.
So the government forces employers to keep employees or pay them money if they do not think the reason for firing them was good enough?
I'm not sure that sits right with me. So long as a company is not being discriminatory in their firing of said employee(and last I checked being an asshole is not a protected class) then I fail to see why the gorvernment should get involved or force the business to pay the person who got fired.
I believe it should be an employers right to say "you know what, this person is an asshole, regardless of their work performance I no longer wish to associate myself or this business with them" and then be able to let that person go.
it has worked very well in Canada for over a hundred years, England before that and several other countries as well. Your objections six minutes after learning of the concept are noted.
Do you have any suggestions for integrating such a law into our existing Constitutional rights and all our other federal employment rights?
It's possible it could just be adopted wholesale into American law just by states passing laws and courts in wrongful dismissal cases looking to the cases from other jurisdictions until a body of caselaw develops on its own in America.
dholokov said:
To go back to the Amanda Todd guy, he doesn't work in an "at will" jurisdiction. Canada is "just cause", if you fire someone without a good enough reason you have to give them $ representing reasonable notice (up to two years, depending on factors like how old they are how long they worked there).
I like the guy's chances. And there'd be pretty much no chance of firing the girl yelling in the cemetary.
So the government forces employers to keep employees or pay them money if they do not think the reason for firing them was good enough?
I'm not sure that sits right with me. So long as a company is not being discriminatory in their firing of said employee(and last I checked being an asshole is not a protected class) then I fail to see why the gorvernment should get involved or force the business to pay the person who got fired.
I believe it should be an employers right to say "you know what, this person is an asshole, regardless of their work performance I no longer wish to associate myself or this business with them" and then be able to let that person go.
it has worked very well in Canada for over a hundred years, England before that and several other countries as well. Your objections six minutes after learning of the concept are noted.
Ha. Awesome.
Its just that Americans are much more comfortable with the "dog eat dog" way of doing things. The word 'civilized' has an air of effeteness to us Yanks.
Having slightly different priorities does not mean we hate civilization. It's nice to see you cramming your usual "America is terrible, Europe is perfect" argument in here like you do everywhere else.
I thought he was talking about Canada. But now that you mention it, people in Europe are probably less aggressive and in your face on online forums too.
LEtranger said:
I thought he was talking about Canada. But now that you mention it, people in Europe are probably less aggressive and in your face on online forums too.
dholokov said:
To go back to the Amanda Todd guy, he doesn't work in an "at will" jurisdiction. Canada is "just cause", if you fire someone without a good enough reason you have to give them $ representing reasonable notice (up to two years, depending on factors like how old they are how long they worked there).
I like the guy's chances. And there'd be pretty much no chance of firing the girl yelling in the cemetary.
I don't know about that - I think the company would have a good argument that she harmed their reputation, which could affect them financially, since they are a NPO.
ETA: Particularly if she lists the company as her employer, or it's common knowledge.
LEtranger said:
I thought he was talking about Canada. But now that you mention it, people in Europe are probably less aggressive and in your face on online forums too.
"Canada is better" is a little variation on your standard "Europe is better" theme.
Thistle said:
Do you have any suggestions for integrating such a law into our existing Constitutional rights and all our other federal employment rights?
It's possible it could just be adopted wholesale into American law just by states passing laws and courts in wrongful dismissal cases looking to the cases from other jurisdictions until a body of caselaw develops on its own in America.
Ohhhh, my friend. No. This is not really a possibility in American Jurisprudence, I'm afraid.
And I don't mean that it's not feasible just because 47% of our electorate would freak the fuck out because a court looked to foreign law as authority. I mean because the Constitution of the United States would likely forbid it. It is my opinion (though I can't say for sure) that the Supreme Court would find that such a rule would violate the First Amendment's prohibition on freedom of association. Certain limitations on freedom of association set aside (like anti-discrimination laws), I think you'd be EXTREMELY hard-pressed to staple Just Cause firing for all employees onto our current legal system.
I honestly believe you'd have to pass a constitutional amendment to make that change. Quite frankly, that ain't happening. Moreover, (and I say this as someone who routinely represents employees in wrongful termination lawsuits) I'm not sure it should.
Thistle said:
Do you have any suggestions for integrating such a law into our existing Constitutional rights and all our other federal employment rights?
It's possible it could just be adopted wholesale into American law just by states passing laws and courts in wrongful dismissal cases looking to the cases from other jurisdictions until a body of caselaw develops on its own in America.
Ohhhh, my friend. No. This is not really a possibility in American Jurisprudence, I'm afraid.
And I don't mean that it's not feasible just because 47% of our electorate would freak the fuck out because a court looked to foreign law as authority. I mean because the Constitution of the United States would likely forbid it. It is my opinion (though I can't say for sure) that the Supreme Court would find that such a rule would violate the First Amendment's prohibition on freedom of association. Certain limitations on freedom of association set aside (like anti-discrimination laws), I think you'd be EXTREMELY hard-pressed to staple Just Cause firing for all employees onto our current legal system.
I honestly believe you'd have to pass a constitutional amendment to make that change. Quite frankly, that ain't happening. Moreover, (and I say this as someone who routinely represents employees in wrongful termination lawsuits) I'm not sure it should.
Anything is possible. but we have constitutionally protected freedom of association as well.
So...it hits close to home. She committed no crime, she already left SG so this was her past and yet she got fired. I personally think this is bullshit. I completely agree people should be held accountable for their actions but causing a young girl to commit suicide and posting naked pictures is so incredibly different yet, the results are the same....
I've been avoiding commenting in this thread because... complicated.
But O.M.G. the stupidity of that article. Seriously. The show is named Pawn Stars... get it? The play on words I mean. Right? And she gets fired for having been on SG. Which isn't even porn, by the way. Erotica? Yes. Porn? No. Seriously, what the fuck? These two things even go together. Seriously! Look in any military town in the US, and what will you find? Pawn shops and strip joints, for fuck's sake!
[This last little twist needs to move to a new thread. This has less to do with trolling and more to do with the fucked up attitudes toward sexuality in the US.]
Well, her Facebook is deleted now but it said on there that she parted ways with Pawn Stars for some other reason and the tabloids are just making shit up.
Off topic of tolling doesn't pay, but on topic of getting fired from a job for debatable reasons, here's the latest. And I'd be surprised, and disappointed, if this holds up in the long run.
The Iowa Supreme Court ruled on Friday that employers in the state can legally fire workers they find too attractive.
In a unanimous decision, the court held that a dentist did not violate the state's civil rights act when he terminated a female dental assistant whom his wife considered a threat to their marriage.
The dental assistant, Melissa Nelson, who worked for dentist James Knight for more than 10 years and had never flirted with him, according to the testimony of both parties, sued, saying she would not have been fired if she were a man.
At trial, Knight testified he had complained to Nelson on several occasions that her clothing was too tight, revealing and "distracting."
But sometime in 2009, he also began exchanging text messages with Nelson. Most of these were work-related and harmless, according to testimony. But others were more suggestive, including one in which Knight asked Nelson how often she had an orgasm. She never answered the text.
In late 2009, Knight's wife found out about the text exchanges and demanded her husband terminate the dental assistant because "she was a big threat to our marriage."
In early 2010, he fired her, saying their relationship had become a detriment to his family.
Nelson sued, saying that she had done nothing wrong, that she considered Knight a friend and father figure, and that she would not have been terminated but for her gender.
Knight argued that Nelson was terminated not because of her gender -- all the employees of his practice are women -- but because of the way their relationship had developed and the threat it posed to his marriage.
The seven justices, all men, said the basic question presented by the case was "whether an employee who has not engaged in flirtatious conduct may be lawfully terminated simply because the boss views the employee as an irresistible attraction."
The high court ruled that bosses can fire workers they find too attractive and that such actions do not amount to unlawful discrimination.
The case was Melissa Nelson v. James H. Knight DDS, PC and James Knight.
SilverSurfer said:
Off topic of tolling doesn't pay, but on topic of getting fired from a job for debatable reasons, here's the latest. And I'd be surprised, and disappointed, if this holds up in the long run.
The Iowa Supreme Court ruled on Friday that employers in the state can legally fire workers they find too attractive.
In a unanimous decision, the court held that a dentist did not violate the state's civil rights act when he terminated a female dental assistant whom his wife considered a threat to their marriage.
The dental assistant, Melissa Nelson, who worked for dentist James Knight for more than 10 years and had never flirted with him, according to the testimony of both parties, sued, saying she would not have been fired if she were a man.
At trial, Knight testified he had complained to Nelson on several occasions that her clothing was too tight, revealing and "distracting."
But sometime in 2009, he also began exchanging text messages with Nelson. Most of these were work-related and harmless, according to testimony. But others were more suggestive, including one in which Knight asked Nelson how often she had an orgasm. She never answered the text.
In late 2009, Knight's wife found out about the text exchanges and demanded her husband terminate the dental assistant because "she was a big threat to our marriage."
In early 2010, he fired her, saying their relationship had become a detriment to his family.
Nelson sued, saying that she had done nothing wrong, that she considered Knight a friend and father figure, and that she would not have been terminated but for her gender.
Knight argued that Nelson was terminated not because of her gender -- all the employees of his practice are women -- but because of the way their relationship had developed and the threat it posed to his marriage.
The seven justices, all men, said the basic question presented by the case was "whether an employee who has not engaged in flirtatious conduct may be lawfully terminated simply because the boss views the employee as an irresistible attraction."
The high court ruled that bosses can fire workers they find too attractive and that such actions do not amount to unlawful discrimination.
The case was Melissa Nelson v. James H. Knight DDS, PC and James Knight.
When reached for comment the justices were quoted as saying "next we drown her in water to see if she is a witch."
At least, that's the kind of thing I would expect them to say since it seems to follow the same line of outdated gender biased reasoning they used to make their initial ruling.
SilverSurfer said:
Off topic of tolling doesn't pay, but on topic of getting fired from a job for debatable reasons, here's the latest. And I'd be surprised, and disappointed, if this holds up in the long run.
The Iowa Supreme Court ruled on Friday that employers in the state can legally fire workers they find too attractive.
In a unanimous decision, the court held that a dentist did not violate the state's civil rights act when he terminated a female dental assistant whom his wife considered a threat to their marriage.
The dental assistant, Melissa Nelson, who worked for dentist James Knight for more than 10 years and had never flirted with him, according to the testimony of both parties, sued, saying she would not have been fired if she were a man.
At trial, Knight testified he had complained to Nelson on several occasions that her clothing was too tight, revealing and "distracting."
But sometime in 2009, he also began exchanging text messages with Nelson. Most of these were work-related and harmless, according to testimony. But others were more suggestive, including one in which Knight asked Nelson how often she had an orgasm. She never answered the text.
In late 2009, Knight's wife found out about the text exchanges and demanded her husband terminate the dental assistant because "she was a big threat to our marriage."
In early 2010, he fired her, saying their relationship had become a detriment to his family.
Nelson sued, saying that she had done nothing wrong, that she considered Knight a friend and father figure, and that she would not have been terminated but for her gender.
Knight argued that Nelson was terminated not because of her gender -- all the employees of his practice are women -- but because of the way their relationship had developed and the threat it posed to his marriage.
The seven justices, all men, said the basic question presented by the case was "whether an employee who has not engaged in flirtatious conduct may be lawfully terminated simply because the boss views the employee as an irresistible attraction."
The high court ruled that bosses can fire workers they find too attractive and that such actions do not amount to unlawful discrimination.
The case was Melissa Nelson v. James H. Knight DDS, PC and James Knight.
When reached for comment the justices were quoted as saying "next we drown her in water to see if she is a witch."
At least, that's the kind of thing I would expect them to say since it seems to follow the same line of outdated gender biased reasoning they used to make their initial ruling.
Accuser
Dana Point, CA
October 2006
DEC 04, 2012 06:15 PM