Boards > Current Events > Why We Must Ration Health Care

Fatality

SUICIDEGIRL

USA

AUG 06, 2009 08:38 AM

Otoki said:

If you have pre-existing conditions,many insurance plans will not accept you.

Which is getting even scarier with genetic testing and screening capabilities...we're without precedent for a lot of the technologies coming out and the ability to deny someone who will get something

To be fair, Otoki, I have heard Republicans discuss some of these issues, including the issue of policies being rescinded. From the arguments I've heard & read, many Republicans & conservatives feel like outlawing these practices in & of itself would solve the healthcare system, no one would be in danger of losing coverage, but it wouldn't force people or businesses to buy healthcare, & it wouldn't get the government into the health insurance industry.

Which of course, does nothing to address spiraling costs (& seems like it could provide a handy excuse for providers to increase them), or those that simply can't afford health insurance (which is a rapidly growing population). And let's put it on record that I'm not supporting these positions in any way.

Of course, you probably wanted to Sarge to come up with some typical Sargeworld answer, but I wanted to make the point-- some Republicans are offering some solutions. They just aren't very good ones, nor do they address all the problems.

Otoki

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

AUG 06, 2009 09:17 AM

IDGAS said:

MrCrisp said:

mydogfarted said:
Not to side track the healthcare discussion, but anyone have any idea where the "clunkers" go?

Sarah Palin's front yard.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

They go to live on a farm with other old cars.

Awesome.

mydogfarted said:

Otoki said:
Somehow I'm sure you'll have some great reason why this is my boyfriend's fault.

Of course it is your boyfriend's fault. Starting his own company? He'd be fine if he'd just got a real job like a real 'merican. Even while he was on MNCare, he was obviously a drain on our tax dollars. I personally blame him for our $30 Trillion Bazillion dollar deficit. The entire thing. Damn commie pinko socialist. I bet he was against the war in Iraq too. Why do you both hate America?

Because we're filthy libruls who mooch off of American tax dollars.

Otoki

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

AUG 06, 2009 09:19 AM

ChrisSick said:
To be fair, Otoki, I have heard Republicans discuss some of these issues, including the issue of policies being rescinded. From the arguments I've heard & read, many Republicans & conservatives feel like outlawing these practices in & of itself would solve the healthcare system, no one would be in danger of losing coverage, but it wouldn't force people or businesses to buy healthcare, & it wouldn't get the government into the health insurance industry.

Which of course, does nothing to address spiraling costs (& seems like it could provide a handy excuse for providers to increase them), or those that simply can't afford health insurance (which is a rapidly growing population). And let's put it on record that I'm not supporting these positions in any way.

Of course, you probably wanted to Sarge to come up with some typical Sargeworld answer, but I wanted to make the point-- some Republicans are offering some solutions. They just aren't very good ones, nor do they address all the problems.

Oh, I'm aware that these issues are discussed elsewhere, but they haven't been brought up in this thread. Plus, I wanted to see if SP would actually give that answer, that insurance companies shouldn't be allowed to reject sick people.

Then again, it's just as likely that he would say that he doesn't want HIS premiums to go up to support people who aren't healthy. Sigh.

ChrisSick

Philadelphia, PA

March 2008

AUG 06, 2009 09:23 AM

Well, I'm not getting them by listening to rightwing talk-radio so the the odds that Sarge could come up with them... the magic eightball says the outlook is cloudy, at best.

FearTheReaper

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

AUG 06, 2009 06:04 PM

God, what a beat down,

Otoki

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

AUG 06, 2009 06:27 PM

FearTheReaper said:
God, what a beat down,

Meh, it was mostly some dude trying to weasel out of taking responsibility for the fraud. I don't think it does much to illustrate why the system is fucked up, just that it is (which we all know).

It was worth watching just because of the look of panic in his eyes.

FearTheReaper

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

AUG 06, 2009 06:47 PM

Otoki said:
Meh, it was mostly some dude trying to weasel out of taking responsibility for the fraud. I don't think it does much to illustrate why the system is fucked up, just that it is (which we all know).

It was worth watching just because of the look of panic in his eyes.

Well, that guy just happens to basically be the leader behind the town hall protests and conservative health care attacks in general, so it is pretty brutal and overdue.

Otoki

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

AUG 06, 2009 07:19 PM

FearTheReaper said:

Otoki said:
Meh, it was mostly some dude trying to weasel out of taking responsibility for the fraud. I don't think it does much to illustrate why the system is fucked up, just that it is (which we all know).

It was worth watching just because of the look of panic in his eyes.

Well, that guy just happens to basically be the leader behind the town hall protests and conservative health care attacks in general, so it is pretty brutal and overdue.

I suppose. I like how he's almost a perfect copy of this:

J24U

Danvers, MA

February 2006

AUG 06, 2009 07:33 PM

There are some days where I just want to buy Rick Sanchez a beer for a job well done.

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA

March 2004

AUG 06, 2009 10:09 PM

Otoki said:
I suppose. I like how he's almost a perfect copy of this:

haaahahaha!

vermicious_knid

Shreveport, LA

February 2008

AUG 07, 2009 11:02 AM

Coyotemike said:

Look, you are going to wake up with the same hangover/doublethink that the idiot right wing is doing now, having tried to manipulate into existence how their promoted leader did "good for their cause" when every benchmark was the exact opposite --- too proud to admit that they got conned and fell for a marketing campaign.

The guy is a mercurial photogenic Harvard lawyer reading whatever words scroll on his little screen. All you need to do is look at the actions not listen to the lullabies.

"No lobbyists" ... the reality = nothing but lobbyists.

"New, less aggressive foreign policy" ... the reality = new and expanding war fronts, covert operations, and bombings in Pakistan, troop buildups in Afghanistan, card shuffling in Iraq while the actual numbers remain at the same level, keeping on Gates, etc... By every measuring stick, Obama is more warlike than Bush.

...everything from huge "bailouts" and new talk of regressive taxation, corporate media cult of personality worship, incredible wall st. contributions, virtually everyone in the cabinet a Paulson style former Wall St. exec, expanded wars, proposing shoveling money at the insurance giants under the guise of expanding health coverage to the peasantry, all of the police state measures like backtracking on FISA, extraordinary rendition, internment facilities, eugenicists in charge of science. The list just goes on and on...

^^^^ These are new world fucking order's policies, he just gets to shill and front for them, while neutralizing and pacifying any type of left wing opposition to such measures, the same as the role Bush played for conservatives with that fake accent and cowboy hat.

You'll eventually come to terms with the fact that what I talk about is true, because as we enter deeper and deeper into this program it will become increasingly more oppressive, more localized, and more difficult to deny.

In the meantime enjoy your false paradigms and thanks to those who suck us down this path. It can end the second that the public stops buying these lies, but no, the nonsense and denial is more fun.

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA

March 2004

AUG 07, 2009 11:04 AM

bwaaaaak!

Coyotemike

USA

May 2006

AUG 07, 2009 11:06 AM

You're right. I should have put NWFO on the parrot's hat.

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY

March 2004

AUG 07, 2009 07:12 PM

One of the most vile people adds her two cents to the Health Care debate....

In a new posting on her Facebook account, former Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) made a dire statement about health care reform -- that it could result in an Obama-created "death panel" killing her infant son with Down Syndrome:

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

And she pointed Americans' attention to a recent speech by none other than Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN), warning of the dastardly involvement of Rahm Emanuel's brother, who is a doctor, in the health care debate:

Rep. Michele Bachmann highlighted the Orwellian thinking of the president's health care advisor, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of the White House chief of staff, in a floor speech to the House of Representatives. I commend her for being a voice for the most precious members of our society, our children and our seniors.

Could this be an early trial balloon for a Palin/Bachmann ticket in 2012? link

ajaxappleengle

Little Rock, AR

December 2004

AUG 07, 2009 09:07 PM

vermicious_knid said:
These are new world fucking order's policies, he just gets to shill and front for them, while neutralizing and pacifying any type of left wing opposition to such measures, the same as the role Bush played for conservatives with that fake accent and cowboy hat.

You'll eventually come to terms with the fact that what I talk about is true, because as we enter deeper and deeper into this program it will become increasingly more oppressive, more localized, and more difficult to deny.

In the meantime enjoy your false paradigms and thanks to those who suck us down this path. It can end the second that the public stops buying these lies, but no, the nonsense and denial is more fun.

Dale? Dale Gribble? Is that you?

vermicious_knid

Shreveport, LA

February 2008

MAR 20, 2010 01:03 AM

vermicious_knid said:

s5 said:
So then, you disagree with the article, and you instead agree with the idea of spending all available resources and infinite money on every possible treatment, no matter what the result. Got it.

To me it is not an either/or type situation.

The choices are not

- "either we allow eugenicists to collect the public's funds so that they can socialize everything then algorithmically maximize productivity from the demographics that are favored, and kill them off once they outlive their usefulness, while eliminating pre-conception those of an unfavored demographic (chiefly blacks btw) - and call that 'striking a balance between efficiency' and fairness"

or

"use a mixed system of "private insurance" where the State enforces a code of acceptable contracts and licenses (choosing winners) and uses market distortions to create monopolies of every lobbying party acting in concert to drive the price as high as "the market will bear" thus screwing the public with the highest prices imaginable, creating immense profits for those with a place at the table who are there because they have effectively bribed government, etc..., and all the while pricing out the poor so that they live in sickly misery, eventually dying before they should, .... and then screaming that any other system is Maoist socialism."

There are two factions vying for control over the public - those that want us dead and see government as the best vehicle to accomplish it, and those that don't care who lives or dies as long as they can suck as much money out of their clients til they inevitably keel over. Finding a marriage between the two (Obama's government enforced employer insurance plan) isn't good either as it strikes a compromise between both evils and we end up with a marriage that matches the worst of both factions.

I am actually for a public healthcare plan on a Statewide level, that allows for competition.

Hmmmm ... a year and a half ago. Pretty good time table to evaluate who was right and who was either lying or was poorly informed/lacking discernment in how the world operates I'd say.

Gee, I wonder why every fucking trick imaginable from "deem and pass" to "senate reconciliation" to voting on a Sunday to the Nebraska bribe to every bullshit mass media claim about the opponents, has been pulled out.

Surely it must be because this bill is "good" right?

Even the assholes proposing this bullshit don't want to own up to it and walk the political plank.

Coyotemike

USA

May 2006

MAR 20, 2010 09:50 AM

vermicious_knid said:

s5 said:
So then, you disagree with the article, and you instead agree with the idea of spending all available resources and infinite money on every possible treatment, no matter what the result. Got it.

To me it is not an either/or type situation.

The choices are not

- "either we allow eugenicists to collect the public's funds so that they can socialize everything then algorithmically maximize productivity from the demographics that are favored, and kill them off once they outlive their usefulness, while eliminating pre-conception those of an unfavored demographic (chiefly blacks btw) - and call that 'striking a balance between efficiency' and fairness"

or

"use a mixed system of "private insurance" where the State enforces a code of acceptable contracts and licenses (choosing winners) and uses market distortions to create monopolies of every lobbying party acting in concert to drive the price as high as "the market will bear" thus screwing the public with the highest prices imaginable, creating immense profits for those with a place at the table who are there because they have effectively bribed government, etc..., and all the while pricing out the poor so that they live in sickly misery, eventually dying before they should, .... and then screaming that any other system is Maoist socialism."

There are two factions vying for control over the public - those that want us dead and see government as the best vehicle to accomplish it, and those that don't care who lives or dies as long as they can suck as much money out of their clients til they inevitably keel over. Finding a marriage between the two (Obama's government enforced employer insurance plan) isn't good either as it strikes a compromise between both evils and we end up with a marriage that matches the worst of both factions.

I am actually for a public healthcare plan on a Statewide level, that allows for competition.

Hmmmm ... a year and a half ago. Pretty good time table to evaluate who was right and who was either lying or was poorly informed/lacking discernment in how the world operates I'd say.

Gee, I wonder why every fucking trick imaginable from "deem and pass" to "senate reconciliation" to voting on a Sunday to the Nebraska bribe to every bullshit mass media claim about the opponents, has been pulled out.

Surely it must be because this bill is "good" right?

Even the assholes proposing this bullshit don't want to own up to it and walk the political plank.

And in your mind, things like GOP obstructionism, astroturf Tea-baggers, FOXNews lies, death-panel lies, false abortion accusations, reelection posturing and the realities of the Legislative Process have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Accuser

Scottsdale, AZ

October 2006

MAR 20, 2010 10:51 AM

People are skittish about voting for it because it's an unpopular bill. It's an unpopular bill because the right has hijacked the discussion and completely obscured the real content of the bill. When polled, people are against "President Obama's health care reform bill." When the content of the bill is broken up, and people are polled on the specific things it accomplishes, people are for those things.

Keep bwaaaaaking, though.

Mr_Matt_

Pompano Beach, FL

July 2005

MAR 20, 2010 11:44 AM

vermicious_knid said:

Hmmmm ... a year and a half ago. Pretty good time table to evaluate who was right and who was either lying or was poorly informed/lacking discernment in how the world operates I'd say.

Good calender skills!

Coyotemike

USA

May 2006

MAR 20, 2010 11:55 AM

Oh, and it looks like they're going to use a straight Up or Down vote on the bill. Sorry, Knid, but it looks like you're wrong again . . . and again . . . and again . . .

House Democratic leaders will have a straight up-or-down vote on President Barack Obama's health care overhaul, officials say.

House leaders have abandoned the "deem and pass" strategy for the difficult Senate health bill vote. Instead, they will hold a vote on reconciliation bill first, then a second, separate vote on Senate health care bill.

While both parties have used that kind of voting procedure on a range of issues in the past, it had drawn the wrath of Republicans and upset some Democrats. The House is expected to vote on the health bill Sunday.

SergeantPsycho

USA

January 2007

MAR 20, 2010 12:35 PM

Coyotemike said:

vermicious_knid said:

s5 said:
So then, you disagree with the article, and you instead agree with the idea of spending all available resources and infinite money on every possible treatment, no matter what the result. Got it.

To me it is not an either/or type situation.

The choices are not

- "either we allow eugenicists to collect the public's funds so that they can socialize everything then algorithmically maximize productivity from the demographics that are favored, and kill them off once they outlive their usefulness, while eliminating pre-conception those of an unfavored demographic (chiefly blacks btw) - and call that 'striking a balance between efficiency' and fairness"

or

"use a mixed system of "private insurance" where the State enforces a code of acceptable contracts and licenses (choosing winners) and uses market distortions to create monopolies of every lobbying party acting in concert to drive the price as high as "the market will bear" thus screwing the public with the highest prices imaginable, creating immense profits for those with a place at the table who are there because they have effectively bribed government, etc..., and all the while pricing out the poor so that they live in sickly misery, eventually dying before they should, .... and then screaming that any other system is Maoist socialism."

There are two factions vying for control over the public - those that want us dead and see government as the best vehicle to accomplish it, and those that don't care who lives or dies as long as they can suck as much money out of their clients til they inevitably keel over. Finding a marriage between the two (Obama's government enforced employer insurance plan) isn't good either as it strikes a compromise between both evils and we end up with a marriage that matches the worst of both factions.

I am actually for a public healthcare plan on a Statewide level, that allows for competition.

Hmmmm ... a year and a half ago. Pretty good time table to evaluate who was right and who was either lying or was poorly informed/lacking discernment in how the world operates I'd say.

Gee, I wonder why every fucking trick imaginable from "deem and pass" to "senate reconciliation" to voting on a Sunday to the Nebraska bribe to every bullshit mass media claim about the opponents, has been pulled out.

Surely it must be because this bill is "good" right?

Even the assholes proposing this bullshit don't want to own up to it and walk the political plank.

And in your mind, things like GOP obstructionism, astroturf Tea-baggers, FOXNews lies, death-panel lies, false abortion accusations, reelection posturing and the realities of the Legislative Process have absolutely nothing to do with it.

You know, I was under the impression that Obama was some super-communicator guy. I mean, he's given like a gazillion plus speeches on this issue, and you're telling me his own base believes those Evil Republicans more than him? I think we both know that's implausible if not damn near impossible.

Also, what's up with the whole "Obstructionist/Party of No" criticism? It seems "Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism" only when it's Dems vs Republicans. When the reverse is true, you're an "Obstructionist". Shameless double standards, ahoy!

Coyotemike

USA

May 2006

MAR 20, 2010 12:42 PM

SergeantPsycho said:

Coyotemike said:

vermicious_knid said:

s5 said:
So then, you disagree with the article, and you instead agree with the idea of spending all available resources and infinite money on every possible treatment, no matter what the result. Got it.

To me it is not an either/or type situation.

The choices are not

- "either we allow eugenicists to collect the public's funds so that they can socialize everything then algorithmically maximize productivity from the demographics that are favored, and kill them off once they outlive their usefulness, while eliminating pre-conception those of an unfavored demographic (chiefly blacks btw) - and call that 'striking a balance between efficiency' and fairness"

or

"use a mixed system of "private insurance" where the State enforces a code of acceptable contracts and licenses (choosing winners) and uses market distortions to create monopolies of every lobbying party acting in concert to drive the price as high as "the market will bear" thus screwing the public with the highest prices imaginable, creating immense profits for those with a place at the table who are there because they have effectively bribed government, etc..., and all the while pricing out the poor so that they live in sickly misery, eventually dying before they should, .... and then screaming that any other system is Maoist socialism."

There are two factions vying for control over the public - those that want us dead and see government as the best vehicle to accomplish it, and those that don't care who lives or dies as long as they can suck as much money out of their clients til they inevitably keel over. Finding a marriage between the two (Obama's government enforced employer insurance plan) isn't good either as it strikes a compromise between both evils and we end up with a marriage that matches the worst of both factions.

I am actually for a public healthcare plan on a Statewide level, that allows for competition.

Hmmmm ... a year and a half ago. Pretty good time table to evaluate who was right and who was either lying or was poorly informed/lacking discernment in how the world operates I'd say.

Gee, I wonder why every fucking trick imaginable from "deem and pass" to "senate reconciliation" to voting on a Sunday to the Nebraska bribe to every bullshit mass media claim about the opponents, has been pulled out.

Surely it must be because this bill is "good" right?

Even the assholes proposing this bullshit don't want to own up to it and walk the political plank.

And in your mind, things like GOP obstructionism, astroturf Tea-baggers, FOXNews lies, death-panel lies, false abortion accusations, reelection posturing and the realities of the Legislative Process have absolutely nothing to do with it.

You know, I was under the impression that Obama was some super-communicator guy. I mean, he's given like a gazillion plus speeches on this issue, and you're telling me his own base believes those Evil Republicans more than him? I think we both know that's implausible if not damn near impossible.

Also, what's up with the whole "Obstructionist/Party of No" criticism? It seems "Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism" only when it's Dems vs Republicans. When the reverse is true, you're an "Obstructionist". Shameless double standards, ahoy!

You want double standards? Why are Republicans complaining about common Legislative actions that they have used in the past?

SergeantPsycho

USA

January 2007

MAR 20, 2010 12:52 PM

Coyotemike said:

SergeantPsycho said:

Coyotemike said:

vermicious_knid said:

s5 said:
So then, you disagree with the article, and you instead agree with the idea of spending all available resources and infinite money on every possible treatment, no matter what the result. Got it.

To me it is not an either/or type situation.

The choices are not

- "either we allow eugenicists to collect the public's funds so that they can socialize everything then algorithmically maximize productivity from the demographics that are favored, and kill them off once they outlive their usefulness, while eliminating pre-conception those of an unfavored demographic (chiefly blacks btw) - and call that 'striking a balance between efficiency' and fairness"

or

"use a mixed system of "private insurance" where the State enforces a code of acceptable contracts and licenses (choosing winners) and uses market distortions to create monopolies of every lobbying party acting in concert to drive the price as high as "the market will bear" thus screwing the public with the highest prices imaginable, creating immense profits for those with a place at the table who are there because they have effectively bribed government, etc..., and all the while pricing out the poor so that they live in sickly misery, eventually dying before they should, .... and then screaming that any other system is Maoist socialism."

There are two factions vying for control over the public - those that want us dead and see government as the best vehicle to accomplish it, and those that don't care who lives or dies as long as they can suck as much money out of their clients til they inevitably keel over. Finding a marriage between the two (Obama's government enforced employer insurance plan) isn't good either as it strikes a compromise between both evils and we end up with a marriage that matches the worst of both factions.

I am actually for a public healthcare plan on a Statewide level, that allows for competition.

Hmmmm ... a year and a half ago. Pretty good time table to evaluate who was right and who was either lying or was poorly informed/lacking discernment in how the world operates I'd say.

Gee, I wonder why every fucking trick imaginable from "deem and pass" to "senate reconciliation" to voting on a Sunday to the Nebraska bribe to every bullshit mass media claim about the opponents, has been pulled out.

Surely it must be because this bill is "good" right?

Even the assholes proposing this bullshit don't want to own up to it and walk the political plank.

And in your mind, things like GOP obstructionism, astroturf Tea-baggers, FOXNews lies, death-panel lies, false abortion accusations, reelection posturing and the realities of the Legislative Process have absolutely nothing to do with it.

You know, I was under the impression that Obama was some super-communicator guy. I mean, he's given like a gazillion plus speeches on this issue, and you're telling me his own base believes those Evil Republicans more than him? I think we both know that's implausible if not damn near impossible.

Also, what's up with the whole "Obstructionist/Party of No" criticism? It seems "Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism" only when it's Dems vs Republicans. When the reverse is true, you're an "Obstructionist". Shameless double standards, ahoy!

You want double standards? Why are Republicans complaining about common Legislative actions that they have used in the past?

Tell me, what's the largest most sweeping bill the Republicans have passed using the reconcillation process? I doubt it will be nearly as large or costly as the bill the Democrats are trying to pass now. That's our issue.

MrCrisp

I'm lost

August 2004

MAR 20, 2010 01:00 PM

Yes, because the 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts and the Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 really did wonders for our budget.

BOARDS:

TOPICS:

SUICIDEGIRL

USA

AUG 06, 2009 08:38 AM

Philadelphia, PA

March 2008

AUG 06, 2009 08:39 AM

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

AUG 06, 2009 09:17 AM

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

AUG 06, 2009 09:19 AM

Philadelphia, PA

March 2008

AUG 06, 2009 09:23 AM

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

AUG 06, 2009 06:04 PM

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

AUG 06, 2009 06:27 PM

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

AUG 06, 2009 06:47 PM

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

AUG 06, 2009 07:19 PM

Danvers, MA

February 2006

AUG 06, 2009 07:33 PM

Pittsburgh, PA

March 2004

AUG 06, 2009 10:09 PM

Shreveport, LA

February 2008

AUG 07, 2009 11:02 AM

Pittsburgh, PA

March 2004

AUG 07, 2009 11:04 AM

USA

May 2006

AUG 07, 2009 11:06 AM

Jackson Heights, NY

March 2004

AUG 07, 2009 07:12 PM

Little Rock, AR

December 2004

AUG 07, 2009 09:07 PM

Shreveport, LA

February 2008

MAR 20, 2010 01:03 AM

USA

May 2006

MAR 20, 2010 09:50 AM

Scottsdale, AZ

October 2006

MAR 20, 2010 10:51 AM

Pompano Beach, FL

July 2005

MAR 20, 2010 11:44 AM

USA

May 2006

MAR 20, 2010 11:55 AM

USA

January 2007

MAR 20, 2010 12:35 PM

USA

May 2006

MAR 20, 2010 12:42 PM

USA

January 2007

MAR 20, 2010 12:52 PM

I'm lost

August 2004

MAR 20, 2010 01:00 PM