I've been listening to the commercials from the CPR (Conservatives for Patients' Rights), and I have to say they've convinced me. I don't want some bureaucrat coming between my doctor and me.
Particularly not when that bureaucrat is an amoral, profit-driven insurance company executive that knows nothing about medicine.
Starla said:
Actually, I also believe the only way to save America is to destroy it and begin again from the bottom up with a grassroots society ruled by the people. Probably won't happen.
It might work, if enough people were wiped out, but it wont take long for us to be right back were we are. Human corruption is human nature, as is the apathy that comes with it.
If another attack does occur, it will probably be the last straw holding back the wave that completely wipes out our rights. If not martial law, then unbridled police power will run rampant. Every dystopian nightmare realized. The system is fucked. Our elected officials solely represent their corporate sponsors. We need to put the smack down on corporations, and kick the lobbyists the fuck out of the Capital. That would be a good start.
I suppose it does depend on the people. I think Michael Scheuer has some idea of what I and some others have been thinking, that the current system needs to be destroyed by violence (which is basically an asshole fuckface representation of a similar train of thought) but not exactly the same picture, and that's something I would like to point out. No, it doesn't have to be Osama that bombs the United States -in fact it should not even be an outside force, and it doesn't necessarily need to be a bomb...
The politicians will never see the error of their ways. They will continue for as long as they possibly can to take money from corporations, and then when corporations run out, they will take money from the people to feed to corporations, to in turn, continue to overfeed themselves to a sickening degree. NOTHING will ever change that besides their total destruction - the destruction of the structure of society, government and economy as it has been growing for hundreds of years. They will NEVER change if they are not forced by the people they are pushing down.
The only way to change this is to destroy everything as we know it and for the people who care about their country and their independence and eachother to come together...
That would include (improbably) finding a way to to make the media an informer of the people, and not a product of corporations. If a revolution comes through the destruction of a capitalist government, we would take a step backwards in having the same corporations that ran our governments still feeding stories to the media, buying stories like advertising space.
so that's what I meant when I said "It probably won't happen" - as anything Osama (at least - but let's say anyone else as well) has, would not wipe out the population, but more likely it would demolish oh, say Washington DC and the pentagon, leaving a little bit more up to us.
as bad as things are, i have a really hard time seeing anything good coming from that scenario. certainly not anything better than the existing situation. societies that feel threatened generally turn conservative, both socially and fiscally. the solution you're proposing would actually exacerbate the problem you're attempting to solve.
Starla said:
Actually, I also believe the only way to save America is to destroy it and begin again from the bottom up with a grassroots society ruled by the people. Probably won't happen.
Ruled By The People!
That would be different how, exactly?
Never mind. Rhetorical question, not admitting of a sensible answer.
bdeaxn said:
Ugh i'm sorry but if Universal Health Care works for England, France and many other countries, why do you assume kiderman and enforcer that it wont work for America?
You say the governments will have control over every aspect of your lives, but it doesnt work like that. Universal health care means..universal. No matter what they have to treat you, wether you smoke or eat unhealthy.
I live in England and i'm telling you...there is no fucking way in hell i'd ever live in America aslong as it has not got Universal Healthcare. It's sickening that you have to pay a whole load of money to be able to get help if you are potentially dying or injured. It's complete bullshit and a basic human right.
I can't even comprehend the amount of debt some people must get in just trying to continue living normally. Here if i hurt myself, i go to hospital, they sort it, i leave. If i get cancer say..i go to a fewhospital appointments, maybe have an operation or two and then if they can save my life i'm good to go. The point is your hospitals are not any better, cleaner or more efficient than ours just because you pay fuck loads of insurance. Here we pay taxes, a fair amount each household can pay, and that is used to help EVERYONE no matter if they can afford to pay or not. It's called looking out for your own people.
theres many people in england,france, and canada that hate it
Tell us about these people. How many are there? Personally, as someone in Britain, I think it's pretty good.
ENFORCER99 said:
If you dont work for something in your life why should you get healthcare??
People here work. They pay tax. Some of that tax money is used to fund the health service. How is that 'not working' for our healthcare?
"MAR 18 2009: Statistics published by the British Medical Journal calculate that one in ten patients admitted to NHS hospitals will fall victim to medical injury, which have now become Britains fourth biggest killer, In addition to errors by healthcare professionals, patients are also finding themselves at increased risk when in hospital, by exposure to superbugs such as MRSA and CDifficile. In June, the Health Care Commission reported that 25% of primary care and hospital trusts in England were not meeting statutory hygiene standards"
"Despite spending nearly C$100 billion (US$64 billion) per year on healthcare â the most per capita among countries that run a similar system â a study released last week by the Fraser Institute , a public-policy think tank in Vancouver, shows that Canada ranks only slightly higher than Hungary, Poland, and Turkey in the quality of service its citizens receive.
hey that national healthcare system is working great for you, hopefully you stay with the good side of that statistic, hey everyone in these countries is so happy they have national healthcare woot woot!!
Yeah, congrats on spewing out lots of stuff that isn't related to what I asked.
its totally related your statistics are right there, your just trying hard to play it off... its ok ill play with you your nations healthcare plan is fantastic along with all the rest
The Fraser Institute should not be considered a credible source of information. On several occasions (most notably their annual calculation of Tax Freedom Day) their methodologies have been shown to be deceitful.
Furthermore, to paraphrase my post from the last page, the relevant question Americans should be asking themselves isn't "Do some people in countries with universal healthcare find some sort of fault with their systems?" but rather "is their system better than ours?"
ENFORCER99 said: bdeaxn said:
Ugh i'm sorry but if Universal Health Care works for England, France and many other countries, why do you assume kiderman and enforcer that it wont work for America?
You say the governments will have control over every aspect of your lives, but it doesnt work like that. Universal health care means..universal. No matter what they have to treat you, wether you smoke or eat unhealthy.
I live in England and i'm telling you...there is no fucking way in hell i'd ever live in America aslong as it has not got Universal Healthcare. It's sickening that you have to pay a whole load of money to be able to get help if you are potentially dying or injured. It's complete bullshit and a basic human right.
I can't even comprehend the amount of debt some people must get in just trying to continue living normally. Here if i hurt myself, i go to hospital, they sort it, i leave. If i get cancer say..i go to a fewhospital appointments, maybe have an operation or two and then if they can save my life i'm good to go. The point is your hospitals are not any better, cleaner or more efficient than ours just because you pay fuck loads of insurance. Here we pay taxes, a fair amount each household can pay, and that is used to help EVERYONE no matter if they can afford to pay or not. It's called looking out for your own people.
theres many people in england,france, and canada that hate it
Tell us about these people. How many are there? Personally, as someone in Britain, I think it's pretty good.
ENFORCER99 said:
If you dont work for something in your life why should you get healthcare??
People here work. They pay tax. Some of that tax money is used to fund the health service. How is that 'not working' for our healthcare?
"MAR 18 2009: Statistics published by the British Medical Journal calculate that one in ten patients admitted to NHS hospitals will fall victim to medical injury, which have now become Britains fourth biggest killer, In addition to errors by healthcare professionals, patients are also finding themselves at increased risk when in hospital, by exposure to superbugs such as MRSA and CDifficile. In June, the Health Care Commission reported that 25% of primary care and hospital trusts in England were not meeting statutory hygiene standards"
"Despite spending nearly C$100 billion (US$64 billion) per year on healthcare â the most per capita among countries that run a similar system â a study released last week by the Fraser Institute , a public-policy think tank in Vancouver, shows that Canada ranks only slightly higher than Hungary, Poland, and Turkey in the quality of service its citizens receive.
hey that national healthcare system is working great for you, hopefully you stay with the good side of that statistic, hey everyone in these countries is so happy they have national healthcare woot woot!!
Yeah, congrats on spewing out lots of stuff that isn't related to what I asked.
its totally related your statistics are right there, your just trying hard to play it off... its ok ill play with you your nations healthcare plan is fantastic along with all the rest
The Fraser Institute should not be considered a credible source of information. On several occasions (most notably their annual calculation of Tax Freedom Day) their methodologies have been shown to be deceitful.
Furthermore, to paraphrase my post from the last page, the relevant question Americans should be asking themselves isn't "Do some people in countries with universal healthcare find some sort of fault with their systems?" but rather "is their system better than ours?"
Your post was much more patient and reasonable than n00bTroll deserves.
All i have to say is that you, Enforcer, are an idiot, come try our health care system for yourself, then tell us what you think. At least people arent dying here unecessarily because they cant even get health care. At least everyone has a shot. No one and nothing is perfect but....i'm telling you our health care system is fine and it doesn't leave people to die.
And if we don't like the standard of care our government provides we have the opportunity to go Private and have everything done quicker and more comfortably.
If you can't afford it however, you aren't left in debt just to survive.
Oh and i forgot...statistics don't prove anything. They use a small sample to suggest things that could be true and can be twisted to support views such as yours. Unless someone asks everyone and goes to every single hospital, they cannot prove anything. It's just a theory . I did psychology and statistics. I know my shit.
Nick Griffin is in serious need of an injection of Persil into his party (apparently it makes your whites brighter) Yahoo News Story as he has proposed that boats of immigrants from Africa should be sunk as they try to cross to Yurp. The sunkees could then be given life rafts that only sail in the direction of Africa. At least we know where the tool of 'toolbox short of a' fame is located.
dholokov said:
Furthermore, to paraphrase my post from the last page, the relevant question Americans should be asking themselves isn't "Do some people in countries with universal healthcare find some sort of fault with their systems?" but rather "is their system better than ours?"
The fallacy of those Americans that bring up the "it hasn't worked in other countries" is that they are assuming that we will adopt the Chilean system, the UK system, the Canadian system or whatever. The reality is that we will come up with our own solution. Unfortunately, the best minds in America will not be focusing on designing the best health care system; none of them would ever dream to be in government. I have hope that something workable will come at the end however, because we Americans rock.
dholokov said:
Furthermore, to paraphrase my post from the last page, the relevant question Americans should be asking themselves isn't "Do some people in countries with universal healthcare find some sort of fault with their systems?" but rather "is their system better than ours?"
The fallacy of those Americans that bring up the "it hasn't worked in other countries" is that they are assuming that we will adopt the Chilean system, the UK system, the Canadian system or whatever. The reality is that we will come up with our own solution. Unfortunately, the best minds in America will not be focusing on designing the best health care system; none of them would ever dream to be in government. I have hope that something workable will come at the end however, because we Americans rock.
dholokov said:
Furthermore, to paraphrase my post from the last page, the relevant question Americans should be asking themselves isn't "Do some people in countries with universal healthcare find some sort of fault with their systems?" but rather "is their system better than ours?"
The fallacy of those Americans that bring up the "it hasn't worked in other countries" is that they are assuming that we will adopt the Chilean system, the UK system, the Canadian system or whatever. The reality is that we will come up with our own solution. Unfortunately, the best minds in America will not be focusing on designing the best health care system; none of them would ever dream to be in government. I have hope that something workable will come at the end however, because we Americans rock.
dholokov said:
Furthermore, to paraphrase my post from the last page, the relevant question Americans should be asking themselves isn't "Do some people in countries with universal healthcare find some sort of fault with their systems?" but rather "is their system better than ours?"
The fallacy of those Americans that bring up the "it hasn't worked in other countries" is that they are assuming that we will adopt the Chilean system, the UK system, the Canadian system or whatever. The reality is that we will come up with our own solution. Unfortunately, the best minds in America will not be focusing on designing the best health care system; none of them would ever dream to be in government. I have hope that something workable will come at the end however, because we Americans rock.
sick
Minneapolis, MN
June 2003
JUL 04, 2009 05:46 PM