TOPICS:
APR 16, 2009 06:18 AM
Tiger_Fodder said:
I was following you all along until this:
Coyotemike said:
The last issue in the cons is sort of part of all of these. There needs to be a shift in how every subject is addressed in school. Even something as simple as teaching basic yoga in elementary school, and getting the student/teacher ratio down to a standard of 10:1 would make a huge difference. Pay enough to attract quality teachers who can live on their paycheck instead of needing a second job and watch the attention to students go up.
Yoga? Yoga? Yoga?
I can just see the Fox News Teaser: "Johnny can't read or write but he can do Downward-Facing Dog"
We can't even get people to stop teaching creationism in public schools. Let's not go and start giving fodder to the Republinazis accusing progressives of teaching "pagan" religions to little Johnny.
That comes from a program I saw in magnet schools in Chicago. It looked like a good idea. The kids were paying attention without drugs.
APR 16, 2009 06:23 AM
Actually, yoga has "slipped in" to lots of mainstream programs, including ones that cater to schoolchildren.
As far as a federal or state program goes, Tiger_Fodder is probably right. But yoga has gotten surprisingly mainstream and is often completely divorced from the spiritual aspect of it.
APR 16, 2009 07:49 AM
DevilsReject said:
gdarklighter said:
It's nice lip service to talk about higher standards for teachers (some of which are plenty high already) and standardized testing (which comes with its own set of problems), but the real place to start is class size reduction. Reduce every class to 20 students or less, and see what happens. This means spending a lot of money building new classrooms and hiring more teachers (who should also be paid more). Expensive, yes. But there are states that are spending more on prisoners than they do on students, and that's just plain wrong.
I don't argue that.
But i don't think spending more money is going to fix the problem in my experience. If you look at the link i posted, the money they have they are grossly misusing. I can't imagine that any school-board is using money completely efficiently.
It's got the trickle down going on. By the time a levy is passed and the money gets to the school board, it gets filtered and everyone takes their tiny bit, by the time the improvements need made, there is barely enough to do it, if enough at all.
Throwing money at that problem really isn't going to fix it the right way. The base decision making factor needs to be overhauled so that the base decisions are right (or at least in the majority right) and then start pumping money into the system.
I disagree. Throwing money at the schools in GENERAL risks having it spent irresponsibly, but throwing more money at the TEACHERS (mostly their salary, but also by giving them a bigger classroom material budget so they don't have to pay for their own fucking CHALK) I think we would see a very fast reduction is class size as more teachers become interested in teaching (or people previously interested, but discouraged by the near-poverty level pay, decide to go into school for teaching).
APR 16, 2009 09:11 AM
Here's what i think the problem is:
The education system in the US was designed to create, essentially, factory workers. the system was setup to create kids who could follow instructions, follow a linear progression of ideas, and stay within the lines when coloring. it's the perfect system if you expect the kids to end up working the line at GE or GM after high school. well, we don't live in an industrial economy anymore. educating a bunch of kids to be good at factory work isn't a good idea anymore.
what we need to do know is teach our kids how to think creatively and critically. rote memorization isn't nearly as important know that information is (essentially) universally available. teach kids how to digest information and use what they know to form new opinions or discuss a problem. that will be far more useful in today's economy than rote memorization is.
that being said, i think a sort of mishmash of the montesori idea mixed with a very traditional early education. kids need to know how to read, write, and do math. you need to get that sort of information into their heads early because it helps with teaching them everything else.
after that, allow a little more freedom in what they want to learn and use their interests to branch them out a bit. they really like photography, use it to teach them basic chemistry. they love reading? let them read nonfiction history books to cover some knowledge holes. and, at the end of the day, have a basic standard of education you think the kids should reach. unfortunately, the only way to know if they've hit that standard is testing. however, standardized testing creates a system inwhich only the knowledge the test covers is valuable, which is lame. are, for example, the books they test on the only books worth reading? of course not. hell, they might be books the teacher really doesnt like, so why force the teacher to teach them when equally important books that they do like can be taught.
APR 16, 2009 10:54 AM
This is a great article Coyotemike.
I, too, was very disappointed to see who Obama picked for positions in the DOE, knowing that they were positively woolly on the idea of standardized testing and national educational standards. That said, there was a recent development in the DOE that may have a positive affect on the discussion.
Martha Kanter was recently appointed to the position of Under Secretary of Education. She is well-known in the California Community College system as a smart, student-learning-centered administrator and, most germane to this discussion, a proponent of authentic assessment. She will bring a wealth of knowledge and experience in this area into the DOE that may counter the continuation of NCLB standardized testing under this administration.
California Community Colleges (CCC) have had to work with the imposition of a variation of standardized testing (Student Learning Outcomes Assessment-SLOA) that was handed down to us by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC) in the form of new accreditation standards in 2002. The implementation of SLOA by WASC was a direct attempt to counter the imposition of national standards from the Bush administration DOE under Margaret Spellings.
And it's working. The CCCs have developed a highly functional, faculty-driven assessment process that, while producing standardized reports and measures, allows local control of curricula, assessment methods (tests, portfolios, surveys, etc.) and criteria for success in assessing student learning benchmarks. The hope is that Kanter will bring this experience with functional, meaningful student learning assessment to the DOE.
On the topic of standardized testing: the concept in and of itself isn't the problem in my estimation. The crux of why NCLB's version of standardized assessment has failed so spectacularly is that it mistakes information for learning.
Tests that rely on memorization do not test what a student can do with information. It focuses on a body of knowledge divorced from practical or historical context. Students who memorize well perform at higher levels on these tests. Memorization is a low-level cognitive skill. Testing this ability tells us nothing about a student's ability to apply knowledge to a new situation or to even retain that knowledge beyond the testing period and it certainly tells us nothing about their ability to think critically and creatively problem solve, the two most important skills that students can learn.
Education that focuses on integrating information into student learning through problem-based (practical application) curricula focusing on high-level student learning outcomes measured through authentic assessment, produces students that can think critically, creatively, and apply that learning in the real world.
Communication (reading, writing) and computation skills (Math), while being core essentials for all students, "stick" with students best when embedded in a broader learning context that includes the social sciences, natural sciences, language, humanities, physical education, and the fine and performing arts. Student's cognitive development is enhanced--that is, they learn to think and problem solve better--when they are exposed to learning through multiple means, including music, art, literature, sports, etc.
Teaching core subjects through rote memorization produces the students that all of us who teach in higher education are now having to remediate through basic skills programs. The system of education favored by NCLB and how it measures student learning through national tests and standards, fails spectacularly for all of these reasons.
I'm hopeful that Kanter can help quell the desire for easily-digestible numerical assessment scores that trade actual student learning for neat charts and reports.

DevilsReject
Cleveland, OH
February 2007
APR 16, 2009 11:48 AM
Otoki said:
DevilsReject said:
gdarklighter said:
It's nice lip service to talk about higher standards for teachers (some of which are plenty high already) and standardized testing (which comes with its own set of problems), but the real place to start is class size reduction. Reduce every class to 20 students or less, and see what happens. This means spending a lot of money building new classrooms and hiring more teachers (who should also be paid more). Expensive, yes. But there are states that are spending more on prisoners than they do on students, and that's just plain wrong.
I don't argue that.
But i don't think spending more money is going to fix the problem in my experience. If you look at the link i posted, the money they have they are grossly misusing. I can't imagine that any school-board is using money completely efficiently.
It's got the trickle down going on. By the time a levy is passed and the money gets to the school board, it gets filtered and everyone takes their tiny bit, by the time the improvements need made, there is barely enough to do it, if enough at all.
Throwing money at that problem really isn't going to fix it the right way. The base decision making factor needs to be overhauled so that the base decisions are right (or at least in the majority right) and then start pumping money into the system.
I disagree. Throwing money at the schools in GENERAL risks having it spent irresponsibly, but throwing more money at the TEACHERS (mostly their salary, but also by giving them a bigger classroom material budget so they don't have to pay for their own fucking CHALK) I think we would see a very fast reduction is class size as more teachers become interested in teaching (or people previously interested, but discouraged by the near-poverty level pay, decide to go into school for teaching).
The problem is, when a levy is passed, we're not throwing the money directly at the teachers. Anything increase in pay would have to be approved by the school board.
I definitely think teachers are underfunded, we don't disagree, i also believe they are underpaid. My daughter's teacher bought each and everyone of her kids Christmas Gifts. It wasn't much, but it was still something she didn't have to do. She's put her own money into class materials that won't get reimbursed and i honestly can't tell you how much you can see that she cares about the kids she teaches. She does a very good job.
I would like to see money, for classroom material thrown at her, i would like to see see her salary increased. I however don't want the stinkin' schoolboard, who, at least in my city are crooked assholes lining the pockets of their friends, to get another god damned dime, in either school funding or salary.
That is where the problem comes in. We can't get money to the teachers without the school board getting their fingers in it, so we're kind of screwed.
APR 16, 2009 11:56 AM
DevilsReject said:
Otoki said:
DevilsReject said:
gdarklighter said:
It's nice lip service to talk about higher standards for teachers (some of which are plenty high already) and standardized testing (which comes with its own set of problems), but the real place to start is class size reduction. Reduce every class to 20 students or less, and see what happens. This means spending a lot of money building new classrooms and hiring more teachers (who should also be paid more). Expensive, yes. But there are states that are spending more on prisoners than they do on students, and that's just plain wrong.
I don't argue that.
But i don't think spending more money is going to fix the problem in my experience. If you look at the link i posted, the money they have they are grossly misusing. I can't imagine that any school-board is using money completely efficiently.
It's got the trickle down going on. By the time a levy is passed and the money gets to the school board, it gets filtered and everyone takes their tiny bit, by the time the improvements need made, there is barely enough to do it, if enough at all.
Throwing money at that problem really isn't going to fix it the right way. The base decision making factor needs to be overhauled so that the base decisions are right (or at least in the majority right) and then start pumping money into the system.
I disagree. Throwing money at the schools in GENERAL risks having it spent irresponsibly, but throwing more money at the TEACHERS (mostly their salary, but also by giving them a bigger classroom material budget so they don't have to pay for their own fucking CHALK) I think we would see a very fast reduction is class size as more teachers become interested in teaching (or people previously interested, but discouraged by the near-poverty level pay, decide to go into school for teaching).
The problem is, when a levy is passed, we're not throwing the money directly at the teachers. Anything increase in pay would have to be approved by the school board.
I definitely think teachers are underfunded, we don't disagree, i also believe they are underpaid. My daughter's teacher bought each and everyone of her kids Christmas Gifts. It wasn't much, but it was still something she didn't have to do. She's put her own money into class materials that won't get reimbursed and i honestly can't tell you how much you can see that she cares about the kids she teaches. She does a very good job.
I would like to see money, for classroom material thrown at her, i would like to see see her salary increased. I however don't want the stinkin' schoolboard, who, at least in my city are crooked assholes lining the pockets of their friends, to get another god damned dime, in either school funding or salary.
That is where the problem comes in. We can't get money to the teachers without the school board getting their fingers in it, so we're kind of screwed.
Unless someone can figure out a way to do away with school boards altogether. Or, at least, make them into more of a teacher/community committee instead of a parents vs teachers slugfest.

DevilsReject
Cleveland, OH
February 2007
APR 16, 2009 12:13 PM
Coyotemike said:
Unless someone can figure out a way to do away with school boards altogether. Or, at least, make them into more of a teacher/community committee instead of a parents vs teachers slugfest.
I think that is what pisses me off the most about the given situation in my city. You would think the school board's highest concern would be education, unfortunately it's the farthest thing from their mind.
They have knowingly blown the City's education department budget on battling one parent. They could have settled for something like $75k and instead have spent over $3 million fighting this stupid fucking case.
They have lost the confidence of the public, they should step down and they don't. They just sit there solely concerned with themselves and themselves only wasting more taxpayer's money with a federal investigation that will more than likely prove them guilty. So now they're wasting, local, state and federal money and who is suffering the worst? The people who actually have a use for the education system other than for profit.
And they keep throwing up Levy Posters with pictures of children on them and the slogan "It's not a levy, it's a child".......shut the fuck up school board, you forgot about the kids a long time ago.
APR 17, 2009 02:05 AM
DevilsReject said:
Coyotemike said:
Unless someone can figure out a way to do away with school boards altogether. Or, at least, make them into more of a teacher/community committee instead of a parents vs teachers slugfest.
I think that is what pisses me off the most about the given situation in my city. You would think the school board's highest concern would be education, unfortunately it's the farthest thing from their mind.
They have knowingly blown the City's education department budget on battling one parent. They could have settled for something like $75k and instead have spent over $3 million fighting this stupid fucking case.
They have lost the confidence of the public, they should step down and they don't. They just sit there solely concerned with themselves and themselves only wasting more taxpayer's money with a federal investigation that will more than likely prove them guilty. So now they're wasting, local, state and federal money and who is suffering the worst? The people who actually have a use for the education system other than for profit.
And they keep throwing up Levy Posters with pictures of children on them and the slogan "It's not a levy, it's a child".......shut the fuck up school board, you forgot about the kids a long time ago.
I really am interested to see if Obama's Administration will be addressing school board corruption, and higher standards for board members as well as teachers.
APR 17, 2009 03:12 AM
cabaretic said:
Say what you will about the tenth amendment, but I've rarely known a state who could handle its own affairs properly without needing a class action lawsuit or Washington, DC, to clean up its messes. I favor a strong centralized control of nearly every program, for that very reason. I have never seen regional control do anything good for anyone.
What do you think is the mechanism that causes state and local corruption and incompetence that is not present in federal control?
APR 17, 2009 04:03 AM
SomethingStupid said:
cabaretic said:
Say what you will about the tenth amendment, but I've rarely known a state who could handle its own affairs properly without needing a class action lawsuit or Washington, DC, to clean up its messes. I favor a strong centralized control of nearly every program, for that very reason. I have never seen regional control do anything good for anyone.
What do you think is the mechanism that causes state and local corruption and incompetence that is not present in federal control?
Good point, the potential for corruption exists at all levels of government. Furthermore, the argument that a state cannot handle it's own legal affairs is somewhat ludicrous. Sure there are appeals at the state level where the constitutionality of a law is unclear and sometimes a few cases may make it into the docket of the Supreme Court, but these instances are rare.
There's nothing wrong with a strong central government with some things, but there are limitations to the effectiveness of micro managing every function at the national level. In my opinion, standardized testing is the equivalent of swinging a sledgehammer when much more precise tools and handling are required - consider regional factors involved in education and variables in the pace at which some individuals learn and you will understand what I mean. Additionally, narrowly focusing on education can have the unintended consequence of limiting the breadth of knowledge and experience that students might otherwise benefit from.







Tiger_Fodder
Braintree, MA
June 2007
APR 16, 2009 04:16 AM