malkav11 said:
And I should note that the use of white phosphorus is itself somewhat questionable.
It is questionable if used directly on people.. However those rounds are used to make a smoke screen to provide concealment and distraction. They explode high in the air and the smoke travels down. That use of WP is not the same as dropping a WP grenade or shell on people...
it's not the same, but the WP from those shells doesn't always disperse correctly. nothing like having a chunk of it land on you from a hundred meters up.
Right. Which is why I label it questionable, rather than illegal and inhumane, which using WP directly on civilians (or indeed anyone) is.
The problem I have with WP is the particular type of damage it causes to the body once it come into contact with it, resulting in a painful chemical burn (it can actually enter the circulatory system through the burn area, later causing internal organ failure and death). The fact that it is being used in Gaza should be alarming because of the large concentration of civilians in the region (additionally, the Geneva convention specifically prohibits the use of an incendiary device against civilians).
As far as it's military application for smoke screening applications, it is actually less practical as the intense heat causes the smoke to "pillar" quickly upwards into the air instead of covering the ground with a longer lasting shroud of smoke. In Falluja, Iraq, the USMC used it to "shake and bake" against the insurgency, first by flushing them with the before dropping high-explosive rounds on them. It's multi-use designation seems to let the military get away with using it as an incendiary within a populated area by claiming it is for smoke-screening purposes only. I'm guessing the IDF is employing it for the same tactic.
It's easy enough to say that civilians shouldn't be out when there is fighting going on, but that's kind of tough when there is no place else to go and you need to get food or water. The humanitarian crisis there is compounded with every day the war goes on (and in my opinion, its the crisis that precipitated the conflict, not just the expiration of the cease-fire). I just hope there is a swift resolution to the conflict (and international pressures help to advance this conclusion)...
Image from Wikipedia, posted Jan 3, 2009 (Gaza, Israeli Artillery Attack)
A former Israeli defense official says the Israeli military used cluster bombs for two weeks during the 2006 Lebanon war without telling the Israeli government.
Hagai Alon, an adviser to then-Defense Minister Amir Peretz, says the government only learned of the cluster bomb use when European countries raised the issue after the war. Alon spoke on Israel Radio on Saturday.
An Israeli inquiry into the war found that Israel did not violate
international law by dropping cluster bombs. But it raised questions about the army's use of the weapons, noting a lack of operational discipline, oversight and control.
The ground invasion was preceded by large-scale artillery shelling from around 4 P.M., intended to "soften" the targets as artillery batteries deployed along the Strip in recent days began bombarding Hamas targets and open areas near the border. Hundreds of shells were fired, including cluster bombs aimed at open areas.
People like you are why I no longer comment here.
Remind me if i'm not correct FTR, but wasnt most of the attack on Lebanon against their infrastructure, and a big majority of it on their road system? So therefor there could have been cluster bombs dropped on areas where there wasnt that many civilians at risk?
Also i found this interesting
A subsequent investigation by the Human Rights Watch revealed that Hezbollah also used cluster bombs in its shelling of northern Israel. [10]. This was the first documented use of cluster munitions by a terrorist organization.
hamburglar79 said:
Remind me if i'm not correct FTR, but wasnt most of the attack on Lebanon against their infrastructure, and a big majority of it on their road system? So therefor there could have been cluster bombs dropped on areas where there wasnt that many civilians at risk?
it's theoretically possible, yes, but in reality, here's what happened. evidence indicates that most of the cluster bombs were dropped during the final three days of the conflict, as a sore-loser strike by Israel when it became clear that sustaining further operations would be futile.
hamburglar79 said:
So therefor there could have been cluster bombs dropped on areas where there wasnt that many civilians at risk?
Do please explain exactly how many civilians it's acceptable to put at risk of death or maiming. Include in your answer some discussion of tourism (with the nationalities of likely tourists), and its contribution to national economies.
FellOnEarth
Temecula, CA
April 2006
JAN 05, 2009 07:03 PM