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10/26/08

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motorfirebox

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA
March 2004

OCT 28, 2008 10:59 AM

bean said:

motorfirebox said:
regarding the original video, i'm kinda left with the impression that the anchor was 'attacking' Obama/Biden for the sole purpose of allowing Biden to dismantle the attacks as being ridiculous. i mean, she acted tough, but she was pitching softballs to a major league batter.


As long as you don't actually think that. Make no mistake about it: she's a wingnut hack.


yeah. i'm just saying, i've seen teeball stands that pitch better.

what sucks is that if you look at the interview from an extremely conservative perspective, Biden basically dodged the questions. by which i mean, he didn't come out and say "no, idiot, raising taxes on big business and higher-income households does not equal socializing the nation's wealth." i'd say that Biden didn't speak in those terms because he didn't realize just how dumb the people he was talking to actually were, but seriously--he's been in Congress how long?

Katieesq

Katieesq

USA
June 2008

OCT 28, 2008 11:32 AM

skeptik said:

Katieesq said:
But according to this post, at least in the state of Washington, either one is a felony.



I guess the thing is: elections are administered at various different levels of government, and the laws that govern them vary from state to state. In some states, there may be a distinction between the terms vote fraud, voter fraud and registration fraud. And in others, they're all lumped together under one heading. But it's not reasonable to demand a common definition of these terms, when the states don't even all share a common definition of "murder."

From what I understand, fraudulent voting (actually casting a vote one is not entitled to cast) is a felony in every state. The rest may or may not be.

The point is, that these talking points pretend that fraudulent registrations are equivalent to fraudulent voting. And it's just not so.



I agree regarding the talking point. But no one has given me a link to a law, state or federal, that shows these terms distinguished. And the reason why I'm so curious is because I have trouble (yet simultaneously don't have trouble) believing that a law could be so dependent on semantics. If the distinction is as key as everyone on the board is making it, then I want to see it in writing.

I think it's totally justifiable why someone might conflate the terms vote fraud and voter fraud. But if there is a distinction, let's see it.

ASSH0LE

ASSH0LE

Las Vegas, NV
June 2003

OCT 28, 2008 01:34 PM

AceT said:
McCain had 17,000 people at his rally!

That makes Obama's 100,000 in St. Louis look like a joke!



The interesting thing is that McCain's rallys tend to be held indoors, where the smaller numbers look larger. Palin generally does hers outdoors. In other words, she's the larger draw among party faithful.

McCain won his party's nomination by way of triangulation and being the overall least objectionable. Their complimentary halves are seeming to make more of a hole than a whole.

It boggles my mind that they've managed a worse campaign than even Hillary did. Though they do seem to have done a wee bit better than Giuliani's laughable effort.

crispy

crispy

NEWSWIRE

Philadelphia, PA

OCT 28, 2008 01:42 PM

ASSH0LE said:

AceT said:
McCain had 17,000 people at his rally!

That makes Obama's 100,000 in St. Louis look like a joke!



The interesting thing is that McCain's rallys tend to be held indoors, where the smaller numbers look larger. Palin generally does hers outdoors. In other words, she's the larger draw among party faithful.

McCain won his party's nomination by way of triangulation and being the overall least objectionable. Their complimentary halves are seeming to make more of a hole than a whole.

It boggles my mind that they've managed a worse campaign than even Hillary did. Though they do seem to have done a wee bit better than Giuliani's laughable effort.


Giuliani thought he had it in the bag.

Adroitbeing

Adroitbeing

I'm lost
September 2003

OCT 28, 2008 02:06 PM

Obama drew more than 100,000 in Denver and in Fort Collins, a small college town to the north, drew 45,000. And still the media want to call this a close race.

joker_

joker_

Minneapolis, MN
October 2005

OCT 28, 2008 02:12 PM

In Sports, sometimes when a team takes a huge lead early. In the 4th quarter starters can sit down, and all the bench players come on. They do play out the game, but the score doesn't really change much. Back when the Chicago Bulls were winning an awful lot, the commentators called it "garbage time." This election is officially in "garbage time."
However, that is no excuse to get complacent. On occasion some lousy team has recovered and won because of complacency. No complacency allowed.

The Republicans know the only way they can win now is to cheat.
Hopefully those efforts will be squashed.

ASSH0LE

ASSH0LE

Las Vegas, NV
June 2003

OCT 28, 2008 02:28 PM

crispy said:
Giuliani thought he had it in the bag.



Early on he thought he did. What blew it for him was his gambit to blow off earlier primaries and bet EVERYTHING on Florida. Given how many candidates and the level of interest (and thereby press coverage) in earlier primaries pretty much wiped out any chances he'd had of taking the state.

Clinton's strategists assumed that tried and true strategies would work for them. They really assumed they'd have it in the bag by Super Tuesday. It would appear that Obama had some smarter people seeing and seizing upon different opportunities. And quite honestly, the Clinton campaign seemed to be a clusterfuck of "When we get what we're sure to get, I want THIS PIECE." Too many people looking out for their own ends. Circular firing squads and infighting even before she was certain to lose.

Toku666

Toku666

Columbus, OH
May 2004

OCT 28, 2008 02:32 PM

Adroitbeing said:
Obama drew more than 100,000 in Denver and in Fort Collins, a small college town to the north, drew 45,000. And still the media want to call this a close race.



Obama spoke outside in the rain to 9000 in Philadelphia and 50 miles north in Oaktown McCain cancelled a rally due to inclement weather.

But only pay attention to what he's saying at the rallies he shows up for: "We're not givin' up!" whatever

Dr_Zoidberg

Dr_Zoidberg

Raymore, MO
June 2004

OCT 28, 2008 07:49 PM

you can't spell Hilarity without Hilary

bean

bean

STAFF

Los Angeles, CA

OCT 28, 2008 07:54 PM

Dr_Zoidberg said:
you can't spell Hilarity without Hilary



Hillary. H-I-L-L-A-R-Y.

skeptik

skeptik

New Orleans, LA
February 2004

OCT 28, 2008 08:36 PM

crispy said:
I received a canned response to my email to the general manager:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Dear Viewer:

Thank you for taking time to contact us regarding Barbara West's recent interview with democratic Vice Presidential candidate Senator Joe Biden.

The Obama campaign contacted us last week offering Senator Biden, via satellite, for a short interview. Barbara West, one of our most experienced anchors, was asked to interview Senator Biden, just as she had been on previous occasions.

It is our goal at Eyewitness News when interviewing any political candidate or public official to ask them a direct question about an issue currently in the public debate. Last week, when much of the political discourse centered on Senator Obama's statement to 'Joe the Plumber' that he thought 'sharing the wealth' was a good idea, Barbara decided to ask Senator Biden just how far an Obama-Biden administration would go in 'sharing the wealth'. What followed was very pointed, provocative question. We allowed Senator Biden to answer, fully unedited.

We tell our reporters and news anchors to ask the questions that one of our viewers might ask. For example, when Senator Obama visited Lakeland recently, Barbara (knowing her time with a presidential candidate would be limited) asked Senator Obama two questions: first, about drilling for oil in the Gulf of Mexico; and, second, about his position on the space program. The Senator's answers dominated the news cycle for the next day.

You can see all of Barbara's interviews with political candidates at WFTV.com including one she just did Monday with Senator John McCain.

Perhaps more than any other presidential election in recent memory, this current election has stirred passions - some of them quite partisan - in many people. Through it all, we believe our mission is to address vital issues that we will face together, regardless of our own personal views with thorough, even handed reporting.

Again, thank you for taking the time to contact us.



She is one of their most experienced anchors, y'see!



True. But up until now, her experience seems to have been largely limited to health reporting. Particularly on women's health issues. At least that looks like what all of her awards have been for.

In that context, her interviewing style seems to make more sense. It just doesn't work for political reporting.

skeptik

skeptik

New Orleans, LA
February 2004

OCT 28, 2008 09:24 PM

Katieesq said:

skeptik said:

Katieesq said:
But according to this post, at least in the state of Washington, either one is a felony.



I guess the thing is: elections are administered at various different levels of government, and the laws that govern them vary from state to state. In some states, there may be a distinction between the terms vote fraud, voter fraud and registration fraud. And in others, they're all lumped together under one heading. But it's not reasonable to demand a common definition of these terms, when the states don't even all share a common definition of "murder."

From what I understand, fraudulent voting (actually casting a vote one is not entitled to cast) is a felony in every state. The rest may or may not be.

The point is, that these talking points pretend that fraudulent registrations are equivalent to fraudulent voting. And it's just not so.



I agree regarding the talking point. But no one has given me a link to a law, state or federal, that shows these terms distinguished. And the reason why I'm so curious is because I have trouble (yet simultaneously don't have trouble) believing that a law could be so dependent on semantics. If the distinction is as key as everyone on the board is making it, then I want to see it in writing.

I think it's totally justifiable why someone might conflate the terms vote fraud and voter fraud. But if there is a distinction, let's see it.



I think the main problem here is that neither of the terms has a uniform definition. Considering the kind of "legalese" language used in most law codes, those are probably not the actual terms used anyway.

For example, in the California Law Code, the general heading for what has been defined here as "voter fraud" (i.e. fraudulent voting) is Corruption of Voting. Which covers fraudulently casting, or attempting to cast, an actual ballot. Among other offenses.

DIVISION 18. PENAL PROVISIONS ; CHAPTER 6. CORRUPTION OF THE VOTING PROCESS ; Article 4. Corruption of Voting. Which is also the same chapter that contains the articles covering voter intimidation and bribery.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

ELECTIONS CODE
SECTION 18560-18578

18560. Every person is guilty of a crime punishable by imprisonment
in the state prison for 16 months or two or three years, or in
county jail not exceeding one year, who:
(a) Not being entitled to vote at an election, fraudulently votes
or fraudulently attempts to vote at that election.
(b) Being entitled to vote at an election, votes more than once,
attempts to vote more than once, or knowingly hands in two or more
ballots folded together at that election.
(c) Impersonates or attempts to impersonate a voter at an
election.



"Registration fraud" is covered under DIVISION 18. PENAL PROVISIONS ; CHAPTER 2. VOTER REGISTRATION, which doesn't include the term "fraud."

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

ELECTIONS CODE
SECTION 18100-18111

18100. (a) Every person who willfully causes, procures, or allows
himself or herself or any other person to be registered as a voter,
knowing that he or she or that other person is not entitled to
registration, is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for
16 months or two or three years, or in a county jail for not more
than one year.
(b) Every person who knowingly and willfully signs, or causes or
procures the signing of, an affidavit of registration of a
nonexistent person, and who mails or delivers, or causes or procures
the mailing or delivery of, that affidavit to a county elections
official is guilty of a crime punishable by imprisonment in the state
prison for 16 months or two or three years, or in a county jail for
not more than one year. For purposes of this subdivision,
"nonexistent person" includes, but is not limited to, deceased
persons, animals, and inanimate objects.



Neither of them are specifically defined as felonies in California, but IIRC, it is defined by the length of sentence, and where served. A felony receives more than one year, and it is served in a state prison. A misdemeanor gets a year or less, and is served in a county jail.

Which means that both can be either a misdemeanor or a felony, depending on the seriousness of the offense.

Incidentally, that last link includes a lot more details on the kinds of things that govern what ACORN can and can't do with questionable registrations. They can't discard them. They also can't correct any errors on them. Both of those would also be crimes.

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