Civil Service Discussion.

Explain again how Selective Services is unconstitutional? Not your opinion, actual proof that it is unconstitutional.

This is his argument...

which is completely gutted by this...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/servitude

1. A state of subjection to an owner or master.
2. Lack of personal freedom, as to act as one chooses.
3. Forced labor imposed as a punishment for crime: penal servitude in labor camps.
4. Law A right that grants use of anoter's property.

I don't think community service falls under servitude petey de panda. I can't wait to hear your logic on how it does though.

You thinking is less than stellar in this matter, if you do not want to do community service, and are forced to do it under threat of legal penalty, then you have lost personal freedom.

That does not prove that Selective Services is unconstitutional.

Do you define unconstitutional as what the supreme court says, or what is contrary to the written document?

FYI men are fallible, and it is not unheard of for men, even old respected lawyers, to be biased, and even crooked.

I can give you a long laundry list of truly bogus supreme court decisions that are absurd. Even some that later courts reversed themselves on.

The argument of "the supreme court says so" is argument from authority and not logically valid at all.

Who brought up the supreme court?

I'm sure you know more about constitutional law than the Supreme Court. But since you (and only you) have brought them up, lets hear from them.

Butler v. Perry

As to your "argument from authority" statement . . . I call bullshit. The argument "the supreme court says so" is valid, seeing as that responsibility (interpreting the law) is given to them by the division of Federal powers.

Which is horseshit as it says in effect lets ignore the letter of the law and rule for what we want to do anyway.

The writers of the amendment could have included that exception, and they knew about the possible use of a draft as both sides of the civil war used a draft, and the amendment was written at the end of the war.



reference

It would have been easy as pie to add the words "or otherwise lawful drafts for militia service" between "convicted," and "shall exist."

They did not make such an exception, but did make one for punishment of a crime. Point taken?

Hahaha, wow, you actually... of all the 4 things you could throw back at me, throw #2 back at me? Wow, instead of doing brutal military service you could just do something like serve food at a homeless shelter, pick up trash along highways and roads, assist the elderly, do Big Brothers/Sisters work, etc etc etc. I'm thinking a wide variety of options could be offered, especially making sure people are guided to things that they are strong at or could aid them in a career field they are going for, and you throw back "to act as one chooses?"

Thank goodness we are already in servitude, because if I could act as I choose, I would find you and kill you brutality for that bogus argument that is just sad and pathetic and thus, IMO, voids you from the right to life.

Yes that is extreme, over-the-top, and senseless, but if you want to go to one end of the extremes, I will dive off the other end head first.

This all goes down to the "static Constitution" vs the "living Constitution" argument doesn't it.

Which has been had on this board many times. Many many times. To death. Boring. Got anything new?

I'm sorry you find it boring that judges want to change the definitions of laws on the fly to suite their personal prejudices, or perhaps to get their jollies by putting people in prison or to death for things that by the letter of the law were legal, or free persons that the letter of the law says should not.

Frankly I find it terrifying, but in no way at all boring.

Any forced service other than as punishment for a crime you have been lawfully convicted of is wrong. End of story.

This, children, is how you turn a simple discussion about volunteering into a Libertarian pile of crap.

You want to talk about Libertarian ideas? Start a thread about them. Stop hijacking threads so you can vomit up the same old arguments. We've gone from how Obama and McCain talked about the ideas of civil service and how they can be beneficial to the country to the Supreme court killing people because they had a whim.

I suggest to everyone, and shall take this advice myself: stop engaging him. He has an agenda that he will push no matter what.

I find it actually rather odd around here. There really are few opportunities in my little home town (30,000) for volunteering. They've all been snatched up. There is a waiting list to work on Habitat homes. The Red Cross accepts blood but turns volunteers away. Polling places have more volunteers than voters for most hours of election days. The nursing homes have daily volunteer visitors (of both the two and four legged variety).

What we're lacking is a good mentoring program. Big Brothers/Big Sisters doesn't really have much here.

No, if it was volunteering I would have no issue at all. It is forced labor.

Foster or adopt kids, that is a major chore that really needs doing as long as you can control your temper with children who are often abused or have mental or emotional problems.

I am not going to buy that they do not need people to foster or adopt kids in Nebraska, but it is possible they might not let you do it for irrational reasons.

Nevertheless that is as I said a very important chore that needs doing.

Alright, here's my thing, is this forced labor for the gain of some corporation or person? Or is this labor for the gain of the for say "Great Good?"

My thing is that if you had to use forced labor to do it, especially in peacetime, it by definition could never have been for the greater good.

Actually, in the countries that do this in a non-military sense, part of the goal is to help idiot 18 year olds become productive citizens by removing heads from anuses via a dose of reality.

You know, if a citizen is actually thinking crap like petey, are there any politicians that are actually spouting off such crap as well? Considering how community service is getting to be "hip" in the politician atmosphere right now I can only imagine who would have the audacity to commit politician suicide by denouncing it in such a way.

I don't know if it will be the "hip" new thing, particularly with the economic toilet we got going on, but if you want names . . .

Bob Barr
Ron Paul

Ah yes, being forced to do work for the state on threat of prison (or maybe a covert broom handle up the butt) is a dose of reality, uh huh!

But, not being given a handout, and so being required to work for a living or die, is not a dose of reality,,, right.

My observation on being a "hip" trend for politics comes from seeing on the news, on the channels NBC and ABC, lots of people talking about how the government did more to bring about community service. As you said however, this I saw before the economic melt-down, so nowadays people have probably forgotten about it.

Meh, dead topic then...

You seem to have a prison fetish. Who says the penalty has to be prison for failing to do a civic duty such as community service?

So you make the penalty a fine, and if I refuse to pay the fine holding that the law violates the 13th amendment what happens?

Bottom line either the court rules it unconstitutional, or the person who refuses to be forced to do the labor goes to prison.

reference

I can see that, about NBC and ABC (both notorious trend setters )

I don't know that I would call it dead, just not at the forefront of people's mind. And yet, in a way, it should be. One of the ways that the Great Depression was fought was through the CCC (I think that was the initials), where public works were built (dams, parks, libraries, roads, etc). Not quite volunteering, as the people were paid, but there is a connection to those old programs.

I will admit, though, I know enough history to know it was WWII that really ended the Depression, but that's neither here nor there in this discussion.