Current Events

TOPICS:

Previous

PAGE: 

1 ... 

64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68

 ... 487

Next

Previous

PAGE: 

1 ... 

15 | 16 | 17

Next

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

JUL 02, 2008 08:43 PM

Sick said:

Colinism said:
She is pointing out that better screening of the people who have guns could potentially lead to fewer people who wish to kill themselves getting a gun and dying. It's at worst an admirable position, to be honest anyone with mental health problems is supposed to be screened out of having a gun due to the fact they would possibly hurt themselves or others. We do need tighter screening and a few loopholes closed to be sure.



And I think you completely missed the point, which was that I may not particularly care if people get guns and kill themselves and others, because I believe death is inevitable, humans are fundamentally evil, and any attempts to make it otherwise are futile.

Her's is an admirable position. I just see it as quixotic.

And, actually, not "anyone" with mental health problems is supposed to be screened. They only screen for specific criteria that indicate a person is likely to hurt themselves or others. Mostly others. You can still buy a firearm if you're clinically depressed, for example, but not if you have antisocial personality disorder.



So then why even bother with police and fire and medicine then?

sick

sick

Minneapolis, MN
June 2003

JUL 02, 2008 08:45 PM

LostLucy said:
Oh please. whatever Yes. It is my job to try to try to treat mental illness. And you can do what you want, on ignore.



I didn't ask if it was your job. I asked "why" and "what" and "how," because I honestly don't know why you care, and I don't understand your endless optimism.

An answer might be as simple as, "Because I'm a good person who believes in the value of human life."

Of course, I'd also ask "why" to that, but I'm sure you have reasons.

And so my philosophy offends you. It happens. No need to get snarky and roll your eyes about it. smile

atomicant

atomicant

Portland, OR
June 2003

JUL 02, 2008 09:07 PM

LostLucy said:
DOn't enter into the CE boards expecting people not to get heated about their views, don't take things so personally, and don't assume I'm addressing YOU. I'm sorry about your personal experiences with trauma - that sucks frown



fair enough.


However, I am talking statistical facts. I once worked on epidemiological research on the causes of suicide, and statisically breaking down profiles of what things coalesced to cause the suicides, with the US's foremost suicide researcher.

FACT, not opinion: A GUN in the home = the most common denominator in a suicide.

FACT: White middle class kids are most likely to suicide, and by gunfire.

FACT: Gun owners are more likely to have a death by gunfire of themselves or a family member.



correlation does not equal causation. is having a gun in the home the cause of suicide? no! it's mental illness, depression, poor family and social situations that cause suicide, a gun is simply the means.

wait, let me rephrase that. an incorrectly stored gun is the means. if i ever have kids, i can guarantee you one thing for sure. there will not be a loaded or unlocked firearm in my home. period. people who leave firearms and ammunition easily accessible to people who don't have the training and/or maturity (read: children and teens) to handle them properly are simply stupid. just dumb, fucking stupid. it's that kind of behavior that puts everyone at risk.

like i said, i have no problem with the government regulating and restricting gun ownership, within reason. i have a problem with fucking morons who leave their weapons out and accessible to anyone in the home.

LostLucy

LostLucy

USA
December 2006

JUL 02, 2008 09:20 PM

Can anyone get behind the idea that it'd be better not to own a gun if it puts you at risk of dying?



EVERYONE has blue moments and a gun makes death a permanent solution to a temporary problem for some who would've just sat in misery for a bit then moved on.


Your correlation argument is moot when the person is dead, IMAO. THAT is causation.

Dead from a gun is dead from a gun.

I've worked in too many hospitals and have seen gun trauma personally and professionally.

I did try to say tons more but the edit was eaten.

optimism my ass.

silversoul7

silversoul7

Portland, OR
January 2008

JUL 02, 2008 10:34 PM

LostLucy said:
Can anyone get behind the idea that it'd be better not to own a gun if it puts you at risk of dying?



EVERYONE has blue moments and a gun makes death a permanent solution to a temporary problem for some who would've just sat in misery for a bit then moved on.


Your correlation argument is moot when the person is dead, IMAO. THAT is causation.

Dead from a gun is dead from a gun.


I'm sorry, but suicide is a hell of a lot different than homocide, and your scenario above is making assumptions about me that simply aren't true. I've had some fucking horrible times in my life, but I'm not going to resort to suicide. Having a gun isn't going to change that. What you're pleading for here is a legal response to a personal psychiatric problem, and I disapprove of that sort of solution, just as I do to similar responses to drugs.

motorfirebox

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA
March 2004

JUL 02, 2008 11:44 PM

LostLucy said:
Can anyone get behind the idea that it'd be better not to own a gun if it puts you at risk of dying?


not really, because there are worse risks that, in my opinion, owning a gun you've trained with and are prepared to use can help mitigate.

sick

sick

Minneapolis, MN
June 2003

JUL 03, 2008 04:25 AM

LostLucy said:
Can anyone get behind the idea that it'd be better not to own a gun if it puts you at risk of dying?



EVERYONE has blue moments and a gun makes death a permanent solution to a temporary problem for some who would've just sat in misery for a bit then moved on.


Your correlation argument is moot when the person is dead, IMAO. THAT is causation.

Dead from a gun is dead from a gun.

I've worked in too many hospitals and have seen gun trauma personally and professionally.

I did try to say tons more but the edit was eaten.

optimism my ass.



I'll be honest. I own firearms. However, I will not be using them to off myself.

When my time comes, I plan to behead myself.

I accept the idea that that it'd be better not to own a gun if it puts you at risk of dying. I just don't necessarily believe that if guns didn't exist, something else wouldn't take their place, and that the overall risk of dying would decrease significantly.

I quoted some data from the UK a few pages back. As firearms are difficult to obtain in the UK, people have switched to rope to kill themselves. Nearly the same percentage of people hang themselves there as use firearms in the US. People didn't stop killing themselves; they just switched to the next most effective method.

Elichrusos

Elichrusos

I'm lost
October 2007

JUL 03, 2008 04:59 AM

jayenh said:
And, just to fuck with y'all, Obama is now Saving the Children:

For his part, Obama issued a statement saying that the court had in effect endorsed his view that while "the 2nd Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms" it does not preclude "the need for crime-ravaged communities to save their children from the violence that plagues our streets through common-sense, effective safety measures."


WTFBBQ.

Fuck that: Dude, save me so I can have some children first.



Reasons I love Senator Obama: "Save the Children" applied to guns, rather than pornography.

DhD_No_Pants

DhD_No_Pants

Katy, TX
May 2006

JUL 03, 2008 07:26 AM

atomicant said:
like i said, i have no problem with the government regulating and restricting gun ownership, within reason. i have a problem with fucking morons who leave their weapons out and accessible to anyone in the home.



You took the words right out of my mouth. It is ridiculous to not at the VERY least, put trigger locks on your gun if you know that someone else in your household may have access to them that doesn't need access. Especially when I know that every gun I have bought in the past few years COMES with a fuggin triggerlock.

My son can't even stand up on his own right now, and I've already made precautions so that he can't get to them.

thefreak

thefreak

NEWSWIRE

Gardner, MA

JUL 03, 2008 08:13 AM

It all comes down to responsible ownership. My dad's a fully legal and licensed gun owner and a hunter. He locks all his guns up, and taught me safety and how to shoot a few different types of guns.

-TM

LostLucy

LostLucy

USA
December 2006

JUL 03, 2008 10:00 AM

I'm done here. If you gun enthusiasts are into your toys, just consider the risks you place yourselves and others in, and please do take every precaution.

I trust conscientious people who post all day long on the CE would also have the OCD to take precautions, but

And again, this is not theoretical conjecture, this is from the Center sfor Disease control, ok?

And the ratio of gun owners:death by said gun is higher than car owners/death by said car.


the gun risks thing again



Public-health researchers have concluded that in homes where guns are present, the likelihood that someone in the home will die from suicide or homicide is much greater.

Studies have also shown that homes in which a suicide occurred were three to five times more likely to have a gun present than households that did not experience a suicide, even after accounting for other risk factors.

In a 5-4 decision, the high court on Thursday struck down a handgun ban enacted in the District of Columbia in 1976 and rejected requirements that firearms have trigger locks or be kept disassembled. The ruling left intact the district's licensing restrictions for gun owners.

One public-health study found that suicide and homicide rates in the district dropped after the ban was adopted.


Gun-related suicides have outnumbered firearm homicides and accidents for 20 of the last 25 years. In 2005, homicides accounted for 40 percent of gun deaths. Accidents accounted for 3 percent. The remaining 2 percent included legal killings, such as when police do the shooting, and cases that involve undetermined intent.

sick

sick

Minneapolis, MN
June 2003

JUL 03, 2008 07:23 PM

Found it. Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home (Kellerman, 1993).

Really? All this is over 15-year-old study?

I know that no one is likely to read the entire thing except me, but I'll pick some pieces out that say what I want them to or are otherwise interesting. Then again, I don't actually think anyone is likely to read my entire post, either. No one ever does. At least not without first deciding they already know what I wrote, and skimming over anything that doesn't conform to their preconceptions.

Any death ruled a homicide was included, regardless of the method used.



I knew I remembered this study, and that aspect of the methodology.

A majority of the homicides (50.9 percent) occurred in the context of a quarrel or a romantic triangle.



I always suspected that love might be hazardous to one's health.

Two hundred nine victims (49.8 percent) died from gunshot wounds. A knife or some other sharp instrument was used to kill 111 victims (26.4 percent). The remaining victims were either bludgeoned (11.7 percent), strangled (6.4 percent), or killed by other means (5.7 percent).



Alcohol was more commonly consumed by one or more members of the households of case subjects than by members of the households of controls (Table 3). Alcohol was also more commonly consumed by the case subjects themselves than by their matched controls. Case subjects were reported to have manifested behavioral correlates of alcoholism (such as trouble at work due to drinking) much more often than matched controls. Illicit-drug use (by the case subject or another household member) was also reported more commonly by case households than control households.



Previous episodes of violence were reported more frequently by members of case households. When asked if anyone in the household had ever been hit or hurt in a fight in the home, 31.8 percent of the proxies for the case subjects answered affirmatively, as compared with only 5.7 percent of controls. Physical fights in the home while household members were drinking and fighting severe enough to cause injuries were reported much more commonly by case proxies than controls. One or more members of the case households were also more likely to have been arrested or to have been involved in a physical fight outside the home than members of control households.



One or more guns were reportedly kept in 45.4 percent of the homes of the case subjects, as compared with 35.8 percent of the homes of the control subjects (crude odds ratio, 1.6; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.2 to 2.2). Shotguns and rifles were kept by similar percentages of households, but the case households were significantly more likely to have a handgun (35.7 percent vs. 23.3 percent; crude odds ratio, 1.9; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.4 to 2.7). Case households were also more likely than control households to contain a gun that was kept loaded or unlocked (Table 3).



More likely to contain a gun that was kept loaded or unlocked. So we're not talking about overly cautious and responsible gun owners, apparently.

Living in a household where someone had previously been hit or hurt in a fight in the home was also strongly and independently associated with homicide, even after we controlled for the effects of gun ownership and the other four variables in our final model (adjusted odds ratio, 4.4; 95 percent confidence interval, 2.2 to 8.8) (Table 4).



Our data indicate that keeping a gun in the home is independently associated with an increase in the risk of homicide in the home. The use of illicit drugs and a history of physical fights in the home are also important risk factors.



Finally, we cannot exclude the possibility that the association we observed is due to a third, unidentified factor. If, for example, people who keep guns in their homes are more psychologically prone to violence than people who do not, this could explain the link between gun ownership and homicide in the home.



What have I been saying about the difficulty of causality and possible third factors?

Well, so there it is, anyway. The actual study, rather than a summary and quick flash of statistics filtered through the hands of who knows how many journalists, commentators, and laypersons. I hope it helps.

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

JUL 04, 2008 12:16 AM

So - don't own a gun if you have a history of drunken screaming fights with other people in the house.

atomicant

atomicant

Portland, OR
June 2003

JUL 04, 2008 12:27 AM

LostLucy said:
Can anyone get behind the idea that it'd be better not to own a gun if it puts you at risk of dying?



i know i told you i was done with this thread, but i can't be.

here's the problem. i'm going to assume (a dubious proposition, at best) that you assume (we're talking even more dubious, like the fact the OJ was innocent) that all gun owners keep their guns loaded and easily available.

i have an inkling, that if you took the data, and analyzed it as it pertains to people who keep their guns safe and secure (granted, this is probably a woefully small section of the people who own guns) vs. those who don't, you might be able to come up with some very interesting conclusions.

what you are against is irresponsible gun ownership/storage. so am i. you can't, in all honesty, tell me that me owning guns that are stored in a safe that only one person knows the combination to (i'm serious, aside from the manufacturing company, it's just me) makes my house less safe.

you might say i could go ahead and kill myself, since i have guns. i'll just say this, if i was going to (oh, and don't think i haven't had those gut check moments when i thought i might), i would have never used a gun.



EVERYONE has blue moments and a gun makes death a permanent solution to a temporary problem for some who would've just sat in misery for a bit then moved on.



yes, they do. and guess what, if someone really wants to kill themselves? there are far easier ways to do it than procuring a gun.


Your correlation argument is moot when the person is dead, IMAO. THAT is causation.



no, it's not. again, correlation does not equal causation, and any study that does not take into account the responsible storage of firearms is flawed!

people/teenagers do not kill themselves because there are guns in their homes. they kill themselves because they are depressed/mentally ill in some form. having a gun that is easily available makes it easier. it's the same as if they had large amounts of prescription drugs.


Dead from a gun is dead from a gun.

I've worked in too many hospitals and have seen gun trauma personally and professionally.

I did try to say tons more but the edit was eaten.

optimism my ass.



you're right, dead from a gun is dead from a gun. dead from a car is dead from a car. dead from a pool is dead from a pool. dead from prescription meds is dead from prescription meds.

death is permanent. i don't disagree. but i'm going to go ahead and raise a point. we, as citizens of the united states of america, have a right to bear arms. it's the second fucking amendment. the first amendment is free speech. what happens when we modify the second amendment? huh? what's next? if the people of the united states want to alter the constitution by another amendment that changes the second, i've got no problem with that. other than that? it stands.

sorry.

Virtute

Virtute

Brooklyn, NY
July 2007

JUL 04, 2008 01:33 PM

I hate concealed carry, but I find it hard to give a crap about keeping handguns in the home.

Previous

PAGE: 

1 ... 

15 | 16 | 17

Next