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AceT

AceT

Portland, OR
April 2004

JUN 13, 2008 01:39 PM

AceT said:
Of the four parties that hold office in Canadian Parliament all four of them would be considered liberal under American standards, and three of them hold ideals of traditional socialism.


To correct myself it's really more like 3.5 of Canada's 4 sitting parties. The Progressive Conservatives still believe in state-funded social programs, restricting free trade with the US, and modeling themselves after a British system. Only influence from the Western Canadians has moved the government as a whole towards the right.

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

JUN 13, 2008 01:50 PM

RudieCantFail said:

silversoul7 said:

bean said:

Big_McLargehuge said:
4chan is the closest thing to true communism than has ever existed.



Anarchy != Communism



Isn't anarchy essentially the final state of Communism? You know: the dissolving of the state? It was my understanding that the main disagreement between Communists and Anarchists is that anarchists don't believe in the need for an intermediate "dictatorship of the proletariat."



What definition of anarchy are you going by? It's true that in a communist utopia, the final stage of communism, there would theoretically be no government. However, there would still be collective ownership of means of production, and a sense of social responsibility to one's fellow citizens. I've always thought of anarchy as every person for his or her self.



There is a diverse range of thought as to what forms of social organization would be ideal in anarchism. The anarchism you are referring to is more of the Max Stirner variety, an off-shoot of individualist anarchism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

JUN 13, 2008 01:52 PM

silversoul7 said:

bean said:

Big_McLargehuge said:
4chan is the closest thing to true communism than has ever existed.



Anarchy != Communism



Isn't anarchy essentially the final state of Communism? You know: the dissolving of the state? It was my understanding that the main disagreement between Communists and Anarchists is that anarchists don't believe in the need for an intermediate "dictatorship of the proletariat."



Indeed, and there is even such a thing as anarcho-marxism. I tend to feel that an absolute democractic state would not tend to "wither away", but rather grow larger over time.

bean

bean

STAFF

Los Angeles, CA

JUN 13, 2008 01:55 PM

LSlice said:

RudieCantFail said:

silversoul7 said:

bean said:

Big_McLargehuge said:
4chan is the closest thing to true communism than has ever existed.



Anarchy != Communism



Isn't anarchy essentially the final state of Communism? You know: the dissolving of the state? It was my understanding that the main disagreement between Communists and Anarchists is that anarchists don't believe in the need for an intermediate "dictatorship of the proletariat."



What definition of anarchy are you going by? It's true that in a communist utopia, the final stage of communism, there would theoretically be no government. However, there would still be collective ownership of means of production, and a sense of social responsibility to one's fellow citizens. I've always thought of anarchy as every person for his or her self.



There is a diverse range of thought as to what forms of social organization would be ideal in anarchism. The anarchism you are referring to is more of the Max Stirner variety, an off-shoot of individualist anarchism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism


And yet, the point remains, the two are not the same. 4chan is anarchy, in the ultimate lawless sense that isn't covered by any of the conventional theories because it isn't applicable to the real world. It is not, by any remote stretch of the imagination, communism.

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

JUN 13, 2008 02:07 PM

bean said:

LSlice said:

RudieCantFail said:

silversoul7 said:

bean said:

Big_McLargehuge said:
4chan is the closest thing to true communism than has ever existed.



Anarchy != Communism



Isn't anarchy essentially the final state of Communism? You know: the dissolving of the state? It was my understanding that the main disagreement between Communists and Anarchists is that anarchists don't believe in the need for an intermediate "dictatorship of the proletariat."



What definition of anarchy are you going by? It's true that in a communist utopia, the final stage of communism, there would theoretically be no government. However, there would still be collective ownership of means of production, and a sense of social responsibility to one's fellow citizens. I've always thought of anarchy as every person for his or her self.



There is a diverse range of thought as to what forms of social organization would be ideal in anarchism. The anarchism you are referring to is more of the Max Stirner variety, an off-shoot of individualist anarchism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism


And yet, the point remains, the two are not the same. 4chan is anarchy, in the ultimate lawless sense that isn't covered by any of the conventional theories because it isn't applicable to the real world. It is not, by any remote stretch of the imagination, communism.



That's sort of like comparing apples and oranges. Or apples and geography.

bean

bean

STAFF

Los Angeles, CA

JUN 13, 2008 02:19 PM

LSlice said:

bean said:
And yet, the point remains, the two are not the same. 4chan is anarchy, in the ultimate lawless sense that isn't covered by any of the conventional theories because it isn't applicable to the real world. It is not, by any remote stretch of the imagination, communism.


That's sort of like comparing apples and oranges. Or apples and geography.


Are you trying to make a point, or are you agreeing with me? I'm confused because, from the context, it seems like you're disagreeing with me, but you're basically confirming my point.

AceT

AceT

Portland, OR
April 2004

JUN 13, 2008 04:46 PM

silversoul7 said:
It may be true that Canadians are more liberal than Americans, but at the same time, they are more conservative than Europeans. They occupy the middle ground between the two. I would hardly call that "a world apart."


Canada is on par with most of Europe, the country is modeled after and has many of the same political affiliations as England. Canada has more in common with them than they do with us.

But maybe that's just a function of me living in one of the more liberal parts of America.


We live in the same city. confused

silversoul7

silversoul7

Portland, OR
January 2008

JUN 13, 2008 05:19 PM

AceT said:

silversoul7 said:
It may be true that Canadians are more liberal than Americans, but at the same time, they are more conservative than Europeans. They occupy the middle ground between the two. I would hardly call that "a world apart."


Canada is on par with most of Europe, the country is modeled after and has many of the same political affiliations as England. Canada has more in common with them than they do with us.


Insofar as Canada has a parliamentary, multi-party system, you are correct. But the social welfare system of Canada doesn't go nearly as far as, say, England and France. Whereas Canada has single-payer healthcare(government provides health insurance for everyone, but doctors and hospitals still function much like in America), European countries have full-on socialized medicine(government actually runs the hospitals, and doctors are government employees). Have you seen the Michael Moore film "Sicko"? He makes a big point about Canadian health care, but the stuff he shows about France is way beyond what the Canadian government does.

So yes, the structure of the Canadian government is decidedly European, but in discussing economic policies(such as in this thread), I feel I am quite justified in classifying Canada as a middle ground between the US and Europe.

AceT

AceT

Portland, OR
April 2004

JUN 14, 2008 01:27 AM

I'll say again, Canadians are more like Europeans than they are like Americans, which makes your original comment inaccurate.

silversoul7

silversoul7

Portland, OR
January 2008

JUN 14, 2008 10:44 AM

AceT said:
I'll say again, Canadians are more like Europeans than they are like Americans, which makes your original comment inaccurate.



Actually, in context(this discussion is about economics, in case you weren't aware) my comment was accurate. Canada is a capitalist country with a slightly more generous social safety net.

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

JUN 14, 2008 12:43 PM

silversoul7 said:

AceT said:
I'll say again, Canadians are more like Europeans than they are like Americans, which makes your original comment inaccurate.



Actually, in context(this discussion is about economics, in case you weren't aware) my comment was accurate. Canada is a capitalist country with a slightly more generous social safety net.



Well, a social safety net is different then a completely government run industry, which as I understand it is what what Canada has as far as health care goes.

silversoul7

silversoul7

Portland, OR
January 2008

JUN 14, 2008 04:31 PM

LSlice said:

silversoul7 said:

AceT said:
I'll say again, Canadians are more like Europeans than they are like Americans, which makes your original comment inaccurate.



Actually, in context(this discussion is about economics, in case you weren't aware) my comment was accurate. Canada is a capitalist country with a slightly more generous social safety net.



Well, a social safety net is different then a completely government run industry, which as I understand it is what what Canada has as far as health care goes.


As I was already saying, that's what Europe has. Canada has single-payer healthcare, which means that the government covers everyone's basic medical costs with state-sponsored health insurance, but the actually medical practice remains largely private. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Canadians)

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