Current Events

TOPICS:

Previous

PAGE: 

1 ... 

14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18

 ... 441

Next

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2 | 3

Next

CodyW

CodyW

Lufkin, TX
December 2004

MAY 31, 2008 12:06 PM

LSlice said:

Shiny_Metal_Ass said:

LSlice said:

Shiny_Metal_Ass said:
But, but....the free market...

deregulation....

Gubbment Baaadd...

What now, libretardians? How's the free market gonna fix that?

Oh wait, it can't...

Maybe, just maybe, we need BOTH government and free enterprise? Wow, there's a wild concept....

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

or, just maybe that's just common sense and logic.



And yet there was a regulation in place to prevent this. It just didn't work. Because the company hired illegal immigrants to circumvent the requirements. How many more of these types of situations occur, but remain undocumented, or covered up? I would suggest liability would be a better way to prevent such a tragedy. Make it worth big money to sue such a company for negligent wrongful death.



So basically, a company broke the law. How is that the fault of government? Looks like the blame rests 100% with the company. You are so enamored of your own dogma that you can't see when it blatantly contradicts itself.

Litigation? Are you that delusional? Your actually suggesting that this poor dead persons only recourse should be to sue the company? That's a little hard to do when your

1. Dirt poor. Not to many lawyers like working for free..

2. DEAD. A little hard to take the witness stand from 6 feet under.

So to sum it up, let the companies do whatever they want, but if the kill you then you can sue them. Great plan.

You have just elevated yourself from libritardian to full fledged fascist. You claim to be for freedom, but you would rather see a company make a profit than treat it's workers like humans instead of machines.

You disgust me, and on ignore you go.



puke puke puke puke puke puke



In my view, it would seem you are the one enamored of dogma. You have accussed me of making unfounded assumptions, but you certainly construe alot of things that I allegedly believe based on your own assumptions of what you think my ideas imply or don't imply.

Let's go over a few things here. First, you said it is the fault of the company. Clearly it is. No argument there.

Now, the next step here is, what does one do about it? There are in fact, laws in place to prevent this. This particular company was actually brought up on labor violations three times prior. What happened? Not much.

So, perhaps we need stronger laws. Well, perhaps. But would those get enforced?

Here's the crux of this problem. The department of labor can't enforce all of its regulations. Especially when it comes to illegal immigrants. They have to pick and choose who to go after. Generally speaking, the wealthy and better connected are less likely to be targets on this list. There are a whole host of reasons for this. I've worked at places where they employ illegal aliens before. In a lot of cases, the people who are chared with enforcing these rules can make more money from bribes then they can from doing their job judiciously. This is a tidy arrangement for everyone concerned, except of course, the illegal worker. The government man gets money, and the employer gets the threat of "la migra" to keep his employees inline.

I don't know for a fact, but I'm inclined to think that a rational person would not continue to work while suffering from heat exhaustion and dehydration unless they were co-erced in some way. Possibly say, from the threat of immigration officials.

I think part of the implicit assumption you are making is that I am suggesting de-regulation would somehow magically solve these issues. I'm not. And it wouldn't. I do think a truly, completely free market, over the long run, would tend to favor improved working conditions, but that's not really all that relevant to this particular case or the present reality.

I think for people who care about social justice, and I consider myself one of them, it is their responsibilty to find solutions to problems. There was a point when i thought more like you in regards to this, but the problem with relying on the government to solve these problems is it never happens. Because these big, evil corporations, they ARE the government. It's like letting the foxes guard the hen house.

Now there's another issue here in general, which is that of illegal immigration. While I don't support using force to compel immigrants to leave, I also understand that as long as their here, there is going to be a market for exploitative labor.
I think the best thing we could do in this regards would be to repeal NAFTA. It's no coincidence that the illegal immigration problem exploded after NAFTA took effect.



Great points all around.

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

MAY 31, 2008 01:17 PM

SergeantPsycho said:
Here's a thought.... perhaps you guys should organize a boycott of wine from that particular Vineyard.



This seems like a pretty good idea.

MinusFourDegrees

MinusFourDegrees

Williamsburg, VA
October 2007

MAY 31, 2008 07:54 PM

LSlice said:

SergeantPsycho said:
Here's a thought.... perhaps you guys should organize a boycott of wine from that particular Vineyard.



This seems like a pretty good idea.



That would go a long way to doing nothing. They're not the only Vineyard doing that crap. If they were, I'm sure they're name, in particular, would be thrashed around and drug through the mud. There's more than one, and even then, a "boycott" is a joke, just like those "gasoline boycotts" for a particular day that I'm always getting. Its won't solve a thing, and its idiotic to believe that it would even have a minute effect on how they treat their workers. If you honestly believe that's the case, lets boycott goods made in China and Indonesia and wherever else they have slave shops producing the products that we consume at wages a slave would balk at and conditions that would make the homeless in America look rich. Its an asanine idea to boycott and think it'll have an adverse effect, especially since next to no one will actually boycott in the first place.

PRockGirlScout

PRockGirlScout

Hawaii National Park, HI
October 2005

MAY 31, 2008 09:50 PM

KeepYouVague said:

LSlice said:

SergeantPsycho said:
Here's a thought.... perhaps you guys should organize a boycott of wine from that particular Vineyard.



This seems like a pretty good idea.



That would go a long way to doing nothing. They're not the only Vineyard doing that crap. If they were, I'm sure they're name, in particular, would be thrashed around and drug through the mud. There's more than one, and even then, a "boycott" is a joke, just like those "gasoline boycotts" for a particular day that I'm always getting. Its won't solve a thing, and its idiotic to believe that it would even have a minute effect on how they treat their workers. If you honestly believe that's the case, lets boycott goods made in China and Indonesia and wherever else they have slave shops producing the products that we consume at wages a slave would balk at and conditions that would make the homeless in America look rich. Its an asanine idea to boycott and think it'll have an adverse effect, especially since next to no one will actually boycott in the first place.



It's so different than a gas boycott, I don't even know where to begin.

Way to cop out so easily.

For those of us who know that boycotts can be incredibly effective, here's a list of brands owned by Bronco Wine Co. (She was laboring for a farm labor contractor, Merced Farm Labor Contracting, on a vineyard east of Stockton growing grapes for West Coast Grape Farming, a division of Bronco Wines, which is also part of Franzia vineyards.)

I will keep a list of the brands handy when I next purchase wine and will also be sending a letter to Bronco Wine Co. to let them know that as long as they utilize unscrupulous contractors, I will not support their products.

RudieCantFail

RudieCantFail

Intercourse, PA
January 2006

MAY 31, 2008 10:15 PM

Which is why I buy French wines. Tastes great, less exploitation. Vive la France!

abbazappa

abbazappa

Los Osos, CA
June 2006

MAY 31, 2008 10:18 PM

RudieCantFail said:
Which is why I buy French wines. Tastes great, less exploitation. Vive la France!


Not to rain on your parade but the wine you buy is called "Freedom" Wine now wink

FellOnEarth

FellOnEarth

Temecula, CA
April 2006

JUN 01, 2008 12:49 AM

I say Poppycock! The French wine industry has been in decline, dropping production value (and quality) while loosing its share of the world market. Realizing that they've got to do more then just get by on pomp alone, they've just relaxed their snooty and antiquated appellation production rules to adopt "New World" viticulture, enology and marketing techniques. In fact, if it hadn't been for American root stock, the French wouldn't even have wine to produce today (a fact that they're loathe to admit).

While I'm can't speak for every vineyard and winery out there, not all California wines are produced under such exploitative techniques. This article unfairly characterizes Californian vintners as being callous and bloodthirsty. I'm sure if you met some you'd quickly find they're very mellow, heartwarming and simply wine-thirsty. (I admit I'm biased, coming not only from a wine producing region, but also as a 3rd generation "cellar slave" who's worked alongside plenty of guys from south of the border who've put me to shame with their hard working efforts.)

I agree that all employment practices should be fair and humane and am abhorred by the many unjust labor practices that exploit migrant laborers. I also think that the tragic death of Maria highlights the issue of amnesty (or at least some form of legal status) among migrant workers. I firmly believe that most Americans shun manual labor, especially in the agricultural sectors. It would also be extremely difficult if not impossible for some industries to survive at all without the aid of imported, foreign labor to help with harvest and production. Unless all forms of production were to become completely automated (yuk), there is always going to be the need for human interaction (which actually helps improve quality). Also consider that food prices would skyrocket without the agricultural industries need for a cheap labor force (or so most agribusinesses would have us believe - to note, my family was quite fair with wages, benefits & even housing, but admittedly, being that the business model wasn't about the profits (ha!) but more about the lifestyle and living it offered, I suspect that it may have been the exception and not the norm). I predict that unless agriculture experiences a 21st century renaissance with localized farming, production and marketing practices, we're bound to continue seeing the predominant global market economy define labor practice to remain "competitive" i.e profitable...

That being said, my father (who works as a wine industry consultant now) had to sell the winery under family pressure (they just didn't understand the culture or lifestyle). When asked by some of his clients, "So how do I make money in the wine industry?", he often quips, "easy, first you buy a vineyard and a winery, after many years, you either learn to enjoy making wine for little or no profit, or you sell it... That's when you make your money." biggrin It's his little way of braking the ice whilst presenting the reality of the business.

PRockGirlScout

PRockGirlScout

Hawaii National Park, HI
October 2005

JUN 01, 2008 12:52 AM

FellOnEarth said:
This article unfairly characterizes Californian vintners as being callous and bloodthirsty.



No, it doesn't. It tells the story of one specific company's labor practices.

FellOnEarth

FellOnEarth

Temecula, CA
April 2006

JUN 01, 2008 01:06 AM

Boycott Franzia? I always thought it was a little odd pouring wine from a box anyways.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
Whoo-ah! Shotgun that baby!

FellOnEarth

FellOnEarth

Temecula, CA
April 2006

JUN 01, 2008 01:10 AM

PRockGirlScout said:

FellOnEarth said:
This article unfairly characterizes Californian vintners as being callous and bloodthirsty.



No, it doesn't. It tells the story of one specific company's labor practices.


Whoa Nelly, when I first read the article on Friday, I could have sworn that bean had been injecting some of his own editorial hyperbole, overgeneralizing the situation whilst smearing all Californian vineyards and winemakers. Unless my memory is completely faulty, me thinks the editor perhaps engaged in a bit of revisionism... (He is a member of the SG staff so it isn't entirely impossible is it)? If not, then I'm clearly mistaken and retract my erroneous statement. Good on you for calling me out on that PRockGirlScout.

blush

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

JUN 01, 2008 04:59 AM

KeepYouVague said:

LSlice said:

SergeantPsycho said:
Here's a thought.... perhaps you guys should organize a boycott of wine from that particular Vineyard.



This seems like a pretty good idea.



That would go a long way to doing nothing. They're not the only Vineyard doing that crap. If they were, I'm sure they're name, in particular, would be thrashed around and drug through the mud. There's more than one, and even then, a "boycott" is a joke, just like those "gasoline boycotts" for a particular day that I'm always getting. Its won't solve a thing, and its idiotic to believe that it would even have a minute effect on how they treat their workers. If you honestly believe that's the case, lets boycott goods made in China and Indonesia and wherever else they have slave shops producing the products that we consume at wages a slave would balk at and conditions that would make the homeless in America look rich. Its an asanine idea to boycott and think it'll have an adverse effect, especially since next to no one will actually boycott in the first place.



I do try to boycott the slave shop goods (mainly, I just try to consume as little as possible)

MinusFourDegrees

MinusFourDegrees

Williamsburg, VA
October 2007

JUN 01, 2008 07:50 AM

LSlice said:

KeepYouVague said:

LSlice said:

SergeantPsycho said:
Here's a thought.... perhaps you guys should organize a boycott of wine from that particular Vineyard.



This seems like a pretty good idea.



That would go a long way to doing nothing. They're not the only Vineyard doing that crap. If they were, I'm sure they're name, in particular, would be thrashed around and drug through the mud. There's more than one, and even then, a "boycott" is a joke, just like those "gasoline boycotts" for a particular day that I'm always getting. Its won't solve a thing, and its idiotic to believe that it would even have a minute effect on how they treat their workers. If you honestly believe that's the case, lets boycott goods made in China and Indonesia and wherever else they have slave shops producing the products that we consume at wages a slave would balk at and conditions that would make the homeless in America look rich. Its an asanine idea to boycott and think it'll have an adverse effect, especially since next to no one will actually boycott in the first place.



I do try to boycott the slave shop goods (mainly, I just try to consume as little as possible)



Well, its nice to see someone does. I try and be as specific with the brands that I choose as possible, but my knowledge is woefully limited so I'm sure, loath as I am to admit it, that I probably do own some slave shop goods. I don't boycott, per se...but I do try to do some background on what I do buy, though I don't always.

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

JUN 01, 2008 08:11 AM

KeepYouVague said:

LSlice said:

KeepYouVague said:

LSlice said:

SergeantPsycho said:
Here's a thought.... perhaps you guys should organize a boycott of wine from that particular Vineyard.



This seems like a pretty good idea.



That would go a long way to doing nothing. They're not the only Vineyard doing that crap. If they were, I'm sure they're name, in particular, would be thrashed around and drug through the mud. There's more than one, and even then, a "boycott" is a joke, just like those "gasoline boycotts" for a particular day that I'm always getting. Its won't solve a thing, and its idiotic to believe that it would even have a minute effect on how they treat their workers. If you honestly believe that's the case, lets boycott goods made in China and Indonesia and wherever else they have slave shops producing the products that we consume at wages a slave would balk at and conditions that would make the homeless in America look rich. Its an asanine idea to boycott and think it'll have an adverse effect, especially since next to no one will actually boycott in the first place.



I do try to boycott the slave shop goods (mainly, I just try to consume as little as possible)



Well, its nice to see someone does. I try and be as specific with the brands that I choose as possible, but my knowledge is woefully limited so I'm sure, loath as I am to admit it, that I probably do own some slave shop goods. I don't boycott, per se...but I do try to do some background on what I do buy, though I don't always.



HINT: Don't buy ANYTHING from the gap, banana republic, hot topic, or any related affiliates.

bean

bean

STAFF

Los Angeles, CA

JUL 25, 2008 10:45 PM

UPDATE: State Fines Farm Labor Company for Girl's Death

Atwater-based Merced Farm Labor, the contractor investigated in the death of Lodi teen Maria Isabel Vasquez Jimenez last spring, was fined $262,700 by the state Wednesday for failure to follow heat illness prevention regulations at the time Jimenez was stricken.


Armando Elenes, a United Farm Workers organizer involved in seeking action against the contractor, said Wednesday that, "the bottom line for us, it's a little too late, Maria should not have died."

"To us, it's obvious that the governor can't enforce the laws," he said. "That's just our position."

Paul Feist, a spokesman for the California Labor and Development Agency, said the agency has stepped up its inspections and investigations this year to prevent such deaths, as well as increased education efforts among farm-working communities.

"We are working very hard to get the message out to employers and employees," Feist said. "Those (contractors) not complying will be shut down temporarily and assessed fines."



Sounds pretty good, yeah? I'm just curious when their words will turn into action, because they're clearly not stopping heat-related deaths among farm workers.

(This is from July 13, so references to days should be adjusted back a couple weeks)

Ramiro Carillo was the fourth farm worker in the last two weeks to die of heat stroke and the second this week alone! Ramiro Carrillo Rodriguez, 48, father of two, died in Selma, CA on Thursday afternoon after working all day for Sun Valley Packing in Reedley thru a farm labor contractor.

42 year-old farm worker Abdon Felix Garcia, father of three, died on Wednesday after spending the morning and early afternoon working for Sunview Vineyards in Arvin. The coroner says Felix's body core temperature was measured at 108 degrees just 13 minutes before his death.

64 year-old Jose Macarena Hernandez died during a record-breaking heat wave on June 20 while harvesting butternut squash in Santa Maria on land owned by Sunrise Growers.



The quote above is from an email sent by the United Farm Workers, and posted on Daily Kos. If you care about any of this, check the Daily Kos diary on the issue. There is a lot of information there as well as specific action you can take.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 25, 2008 11:16 PM

Atwater-based Merced Farm Labor, the contractor investigated in the death of Lodi teen Maria Isabel Vasquez Jimenez last spring, was fined $262,700 by the state Wednesday for failure to follow heat illness prevention regulations at the time Jimenez was stricken.



Violence and/or Slavery!

bean

bean

STAFF

Los Angeles, CA

JUL 26, 2008 10:26 AM

bald_eagle said:
And still no criminal charges? Where's Jack McCoy when you need him?


The UFW is still pushing for criminal charges. I really think holding the individual people responsible for providing shade and water responsible for what happens when they don't provide shade and water is the only real way to stop it. I'm all for big fat fines on companies when they're violating a rule that's designed to keep bad things from happening, but when people are dead because some dipshit thinks they're subhuman and so doesn't treat them like human beings, then that dipshit should be in jail.

DannyDMc

DannyDMc

Fargo, ND
July 2003

JUL 26, 2008 03:24 PM


That poor girl, and her child frown

I hope that criminal charges are brought against the owners of the Vineyard (who were either negligent in not knowing what was going on in their own business, or downright cruel if they purposely did these sort of things) in addition to heavy fines. The industry needs to be held accountable for their treatment of workers. Seriously, where is the Union in cases such as this?
Having done farm labor myself in the past, its very physically taxing work, especially during the height of summer. One can not be expected to do it without large amounts of water on hand, and the ability to take breaks to starve off heat exhaustion. *shudders*
I hope the asswipes who are responsible are made to suffer for this!

MinusFourDegrees

MinusFourDegrees

Williamsburg, VA
October 2007

JUL 26, 2008 06:47 PM

bald_eagle said:

bean said:

bald_eagle said:
And still no criminal charges? Where's Jack McCoy when you need him?


The UFW is still pushing for criminal charges. I really think holding the individual people responsible for providing shade and water responsible for what happens when they don't provide shade and water is the only real way to stop it. I'm all for big fat fines on companies when they're violating a rule that's designed to keep bad things from happening, but when people are dead because some dipshit thinks they're subhuman and so doesn't treat them like human beings, then that dipshit should be in jail.


I'm not current on California law. I passed the calbar in 1984, but I haven't kept up.

Under Indiana law I have no doubt that criminal charges could be brought.



I'd personally love to see them face criminal charges.

Mr_Mocata

Mr_Mocata

United Kingdom
OLD SKOOL

JUL 27, 2008 02:50 AM

bean said:
Remind me again why people want less regulation? This is exactly the sort of behavior in which companies will engage in the absence of regulation or in the absence of enforcement of regulations. The market will not always sort it out, because there is no economic disincentive to this sort of behavior in an economy where corporate profits are shielded from labor conditions by long distribution chains and consumer indifference. The company should be massively penalized, but the maximum that could happen is a $25,000 fine.



Your remarks made me think of a Tom Tomorrow cartoon concerning
regulation

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2 | 3

Next