TOPICS:
MAY 28, 2008 07:48 PM
scylis said:
Karella_Deville said:
s5 said:
TimTam, I have no power or ability to change gas prices. I just see the writing on the wall. The world's addiction to oil is making things worse and worse with no end in sight. Prices aren't going down anytime soon, either, especially with China's new love affair with the car.
And it just so happens that people are only truly motivated to change their behavior as the price of gas becomes unaffordable. It's going to happen anyway, and with the right policies, the transition doesn't have to be too painful. In fact, it will improve everyone's quality of life.
...except for the poor. 
you're actually assuming they have enough money to have a car right now.
in fact, improvements to public transportation would benefit them more than most other groups, as they're most likely already dependent on it for getting around.
I dont have enough money for a car, the most I can spend at any one time on anything is $500 and thats pushing it. Improvments to public transportation, or at the very least sidewalks would do wonders for me.
MAY 28, 2008 07:48 PM
MAY 28, 2008 07:55 PM
Oninotaki said:
scylis said:
Karella_Deville said:
s5 said:
TimTam, I have no power or ability to change gas prices. I just see the writing on the wall. The world's addiction to oil is making things worse and worse with no end in sight. Prices aren't going down anytime soon, either, especially with China's new love affair with the car.
And it just so happens that people are only truly motivated to change their behavior as the price of gas becomes unaffordable. It's going to happen anyway, and with the right policies, the transition doesn't have to be too painful. In fact, it will improve everyone's quality of life.
...except for the poor.
you're actually assuming they have enough money to have a car right now.
in fact, improvements to public transportation would benefit them more than most other groups, as they're most likely already dependent on it for getting around.
I dont have enough money for a car, the most I can spend at any one time on anything is $500 and thats pushing it. Improvments to public transportation, or at the very least sidewalks would do wonders for me.
i have a car only due to the fact that one of my roommates got a bit extra on one of her credit-building loans (her rating is phenomenal now), so i pay half of the payment each month. my credit is next to non-existent, so that was not an option on my own. if not for that, i'd be in the same position. also, public transportation up here is horrid compared to most cities.
MAY 28, 2008 07:59 PM
scylis said:
Karella_Deville said:
s5 said:
TimTam, I have no power or ability to change gas prices. I just see the writing on the wall. The world's addiction to oil is making things worse and worse with no end in sight. Prices aren't going down anytime soon, either, especially with China's new love affair with the car.
And it just so happens that people are only truly motivated to change their behavior as the price of gas becomes unaffordable. It's going to happen anyway, and with the right policies, the transition doesn't have to be too painful. In fact, it will improve everyone's quality of life.
...except for the poor.
you're actually assuming they have enough money to have a car right now.
in fact, improvements to public transportation would benefit them more than most other groups, as they're most likely already dependent on it for getting around.
I guess that depends on your definition of poor. I would consider anyone the government helps with heating or food stamps or childcare 'poor'. Some of these people, including myself have cars. I suppose that selling it would be a good idea had we any decent public transpo in this city, but I think s5's idea would just make people like me even poorer (to the point of which you are taking about). I don't see that as being beneficial.
MAY 28, 2008 08:03 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:06 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:13 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:19 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:20 PM
Karella_Deville said:
...except for the poor.
our farmers market is still working on implementing a plan to accept food stamps, so while us poor people wait for that to go into effect, we get our groceries from a grocery store who gets affordable produce to us (and accepts food stamps). But with rising fuel costs, the cost of our groceries go up, our wages go down, we are still living in the communities without safe bike paths, driving the cars we can afford (since we cant afford to get a hybrid).
I have a small garden that has onions and other perennials, but if I want to get anything else to eat and not get mugged I would have to get into my car and drive about 6 miles to a grocery store. If gas costs triple, I would be unemployed and need to live off the system, so in a way, you, s5 would not only be paying triple for gas, but also more in taxes (presumably) because of all the people like me who would need even more help from the government.
what else do you suggest we do? 
You're assuming that nothing happens between now and when gas prices triple (or double, whichever), and that one day we wake up, and gas has gone up from $4 to $12 overnight. More likely is that prices will go up another 50 cents, and society and policy will adjust slightly, and so on for each step of increase.
It will be a long process, taking many years, and the idea is that we should start now by electing the right people and making new choices in our personal lives, instead of pretending there's going to be some magical day in the future when gas becomes affordable again. It's just never going to happen.
Some of the steps along the way are free or cheap, like carpooling, or using bus systems that already exist but no one uses. Obviously this doesn't work for everyone, and along the way, we'll find new ways of doing things. People can and do adapt to changing circumstances, and the idea that we can't change because it's too hard is a really depressing thought. If that's truly what civilization has become, then gas prices are the least of our worries.
MAY 28, 2008 08:20 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:21 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:22 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:24 PM
Karella_Deville said:
scylis said:
Karella_Deville said:
s5 said:
TimTam, I have no power or ability to change gas prices. I just see the writing on the wall. The world's addiction to oil is making things worse and worse with no end in sight. Prices aren't going down anytime soon, either, especially with China's new love affair with the car.
And it just so happens that people are only truly motivated to change their behavior as the price of gas becomes unaffordable. It's going to happen anyway, and with the right policies, the transition doesn't have to be too painful. In fact, it will improve everyone's quality of life.
...except for the poor.
you're actually assuming they have enough money to have a car right now.
in fact, improvements to public transportation would benefit them more than most other groups, as they're most likely already dependent on it for getting around.
I guess that depends on your definition of poor. I would consider anyone the government helps with heating or food stamps or childcare 'poor'. Some of these people, including myself have cars. I suppose that selling it would be a good idea had we any decent public transpo in this city, but I think s5's idea would just make people like me even poorer (to the point of which you are taking about). I don't see that as being beneficial.
you (and i. and most likely s5, and a good portion of the people who post here) are going to get a whole lot more poor, whether you like it or not. by actively striding towards a point where we force the market and industry to change for the better we're helping us in the long run. we need to focus on finding the next method of powering the planet rather than wringing out every last penny at the pump. money is much better spent trying to come up with a viable means to produce hydrogen, electric-powered cars, or cold fusion and setting up and running efficient public transportation rather than keeping the price/gallon down.
it benefits everybody more.
MAY 28, 2008 08:26 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:30 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:33 PM
s5 said:
Karella_Deville said:
...except for the poor.
our farmers market is still working on implementing a plan to accept food stamps, so while us poor people wait for that to go into effect, we get our groceries from a grocery store who gets affordable produce to us (and accepts food stamps). But with rising fuel costs, the cost of our groceries go up, our wages go down, we are still living in the communities without safe bike paths, driving the cars we can afford (since we cant afford to get a hybrid).
I have a small garden that has onions and other perennials, but if I want to get anything else to eat and not get mugged I would have to get into my car and drive about 6 miles to a grocery store. If gas costs triple, I would be unemployed and need to live off the system, so in a way, you, s5 would not only be paying triple for gas, but also more in taxes (presumably) because of all the people like me who would need even more help from the government.
what else do you suggest we do?
You're assuming that nothing happens between now and when gas prices triple (or double, whichever), and that one day we wake up, and gas has gone up from $4 to $12 overnight. More likely is that prices will go up another 50 cents, and society and policy will adjust slightly, and so on for each step of increase.
It will be a long process, taking many years, and the idea is that we should start now by electing the right people and making new choices in our personal lives, instead of pretending there's going to be some magical day in the future when gas becomes affordable again. It's just never going to happen.
Some of the steps along the way are free or cheap, like carpooling, or using bus systems that already exist but no one uses. Obviously this doesn't work for everyone, and along the way, we'll find new ways of doing things. People can and do adapt to changing circumstances, and the idea that we can't change because it's too hard is a really depressing thought. If that's truly what civilization has become, then gas prices are the least of our worries.
Not only that, but it seems that people aren't understanding that that will happen, not that it's one possibility.
Domestic oil production has been declining steadily for 20 years, and that decline has been offset by imports. This is not a sustainable position, and without drastic changes to our behavior, oil (and gas) costs will continue to rise. The rate of that rise is inversely proportional to our efforts to modify both our behavior and our dependence on oil as a fuel.
While the cost of oil is distributed across our entire economy, the consumption of oil in the US is mostly in transportation (fuel). This means that, above all else, massive changes to our transportation system will have the biggest impact on our oil consumption as a nation.
MAY 28, 2008 08:37 PM
MAY 28, 2008 08:39 PM
Karella_Deville said: but I read earlier in this thread that big oil buys all the patents to this technology, how would we get around this? Or is that not exactly true?
Sorry, just trying to figure out where you guys are coming from
Big oil is in business to make money, if someone found a way to produce energy using a technology with a lower cost than oil/coal/nuclear they would not hide it but market it.
Avoid the trolls, conspiracy nuts and especially the conspiracy nut trolls. 
scylis
USA
November 2004
MAY 28, 2008 07:46 PM