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Stiles

Stiles

New York, NY
November 2002

MAY 23, 2008 12:06 PM

strndniowa said:

As a country, we simply cannot survive by outsourcing manufacturing to other countries where they happen to have cheaper labor costs...
And this very skilled mechanic is ready to quit the business and get his law degree...at least being a starving lawyer sounds better...but who is going to fix your "hecha en Mexico" Chevrolet engine then?



Agreed. You and I have both been in the business long enough to know how badly the current system is broken, and how skilled and educated a good tech must be these days. It's not getting any easier, and with shop labor rates heading for 100$/hr on the coasts, it would be nice to see a more equitable distribution of that money to the guys who actually do the work.

Nobody's outsourcing fixing those cars and trucks to Mexico.

strndniowa

strndniowa

Grimes, IA
May 2007

MAY 24, 2008 09:11 PM

Stiles said:

strndniowa said:

As a country, we simply cannot survive by outsourcing manufacturing to other countries where they happen to have cheaper labor costs...
And this very skilled mechanic is ready to quit the business and get his law degree...at least being a starving lawyer sounds better...but who is going to fix your "hecha en Mexico" Chevrolet engine then?



Agreed. You and I have both been in the business long enough to know how badly the current system is broken, and how skilled and educated a good tech must be these days. It's not getting any easier, and with shop labor rates heading for 100$/hr on the coasts, it would be nice to see a more equitable distribution of that money to the guys who actually do the work.

Nobody's outsourcing fixing those cars and trucks to Mexico.



At least we have SOMETHING!!!
What disgusts me is that C and D level techs can make more money then A techs( gravy is gravy) and none of us are paid what we need to make..or should make...wish there was a union still....

strndniowa

strndniowa

Grimes, IA
May 2007

MAY 24, 2008 09:20 PM

Shalome said:
Jack Daniels! Coca-Cola! Budweiser! biggrin



Anheuser-Busch may be getting sold...you still have Jack Daniels??? frown

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

MAY 25, 2008 12:31 AM

Shalome said:
Rockstar Games.



I agree with your overall point, but to quibble:

Some parts of Rockstar operation may well be in the US. The part that makes the GTA games that Rockstar is primarily known for as a company (well, a division, really, since they're owned by Take Two)? Scottish.

Mr_Mocata

Mr_Mocata

United Kingdom
OLD SKOOL

MAY 25, 2008 07:10 AM

Wheezy_E said:
don't we lead the world in methamphetamine production? You think we'd be all busy building shit and stuff.



You would have thought that this would help with the US trade deficit but then again all of the cocaine that gets imported from the FARC controlled region of Columbia kind of negates any trade deficit correction.

Mr_Mocata

Mr_Mocata

United Kingdom
OLD SKOOL

MAY 25, 2008 07:12 AM

Tiwaz said:
The US, France, UK, Russia, and China are the top five exporters of munitions in the world. biggrin



This makes me so proud to be British...erm...

Mr_Mocata

Mr_Mocata

United Kingdom
OLD SKOOL

MAY 25, 2008 07:48 AM

SockPuppet said:
As the price of oil goes ever up, you might start seeing those tags again.



The weakness of the US Dollar must surely be of some benefit to US based manufacturers. A weak dollar pushes up the price of oil (and hence the cost of freight) and also makes imports less attractive due to the reduced buying power of the dollar.

Although I suppose that if the goods are manufactured in a country which pegs its currency to the dollar the weakness of the dollar might not make such a difference. Similarly if the goods are manufactured in a country that is situated fairly near to the US then the increased price of oil (and hence freight) would not make such a pronounced difference.

Mr_Mocata

Mr_Mocata

United Kingdom
OLD SKOOL

MAY 25, 2008 07:51 AM

I wonder how the weak dollar affects US agriculture. Similar arguments might apply as for manufactured goods. However, thinking about it I wonder if agricultural production costs can be affected in surprising ways by the price of oil.


  • Modern agriculture is heavily reliant on fertilisers to sustain high yields

  • Fertilisers are made using ammonia

  • Ammonia is made by combining Nitrogen and Hydrogen using the Haber Process

  • Currently the most cost effective way to produce Hydrogen gas in the industrial quantities required for the fertiliser industry is to extract it from fossil fuels.

  • Fossil fuels are currently undergoing a price rise, which is partly due to the weakness of the US Dollar and partly due to failure of fossil fuel production to rise in line with the increased demand from developing economies such as China and India.

  • Fertilisers are more expensive and this increases agricultural costs making food more expensive.



Hence, although a weaker dollar would in theory help US farmers by making US agricultural produce more competitive on price, the higher cost of fertiliser might negate this.

Of course, rising fertiliser costs will also affect farmers in other countries. One of the causes (by not the only one) of the current global increase in food prices is that Third World farmers are cultivating less land due to not having enough money to buy sufficient fertiliser. Obviously, farmers in rich countries with strong currencies and subsidies (eg farmers in the EU) will be better able to cope with rises in fertiliser prices.

Ok I don't know much about US agriculture so I would be interested to know what other people think about this. For example, do US farmers get subsidies which will keep the price down regardless of rising fertiliser costs. Do they? I don't know?

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

MAY 25, 2008 02:54 PM

mercurius said:
I wonder how the weak dollar affects US agriculture. Similar arguments might apply as for manufactured goods. However, thinking about it I wonder if agricultural production costs can be affected in surprising ways by the price of oil.


  • Modern agriculture is heavily reliant on fertilisers to sustain high yields

  • Fertilisers are made using ammonia

  • Ammonia is made by combining Nitrogen and Hydrogen using the Haber Process

  • Currently the most cost effective way to produce Hydrogen gas in the industrial quantities required for the fertiliser industry is to extract it from fossil fuels.

  • Fossil fuels are currently undergoing a price rise, which is partly due to the weakness of the US Dollar and partly due to failure of fossil fuel production to rise in line with the increased demand from developing economies such as China and India.

  • Fertilisers are more expensive and this increases agricultural costs making food more expensive.



Hence, although a weaker dollar would in theory help US farmers by making US agricultural produce more competitive on price, the higher cost of fertiliser might negate this.

Of course, rising fertiliser costs will also affect farmers in other countries. One of the causes (by not the only one) of the current global increase in food prices is that Third World farmers are cultivating less land due to not having enough money to buy sufficient fertiliser. Obviously, farmers in rich countries with strong currencies and subsidies (eg farmers in the EU) will be better able to cope with rises in fertiliser prices.

Ok I don't know much about US agriculture so I would be interested to know what other people think about this. For example, do US farmers get subsidies which will keep the price down regardless of rising fertiliser costs. Do they? I don't know?



I do know that US farming is quite heavily subsidised (though I don't think it's a EU CAP levels). I don't know whether there are specific subsidies for fertiliser, etc..

Generally, the price of food is largely dictated by the price of oil; oil makes fertiliser, oil fuels the agricultural machines (tractors etc.) and the trucks that move the produce, oil fuels (some of) the factories which process the food.
As the cost of fuel goes up, we might start seeing a movement of labour back into agriculture.

Elsewhere in the world, I suspect the price of oil doesn't matter quite as much, because farming is less industrialised.

turin

turin

Denver, CO
October 2003

MAY 25, 2008 03:38 PM

strndniowa said:

Stiles said:

strndniowa said:

As a country, we simply cannot survive by outsourcing manufacturing to other countries where they happen to have cheaper labor costs...
And this very skilled mechanic is ready to quit the business and get his law degree...at least being a starving lawyer sounds better...but who is going to fix your "hecha en Mexico" Chevrolet engine then?



Agreed. You and I have both been in the business long enough to know how badly the current system is broken, and how skilled and educated a good tech must be these days. It's not getting any easier, and with shop labor rates heading for 100$/hr on the coasts, it would be nice to see a more equitable distribution of that money to the guys who actually do the work.

Nobody's outsourcing fixing those cars and trucks to Mexico.



At least we have SOMETHING!!!
What disgusts me is that C and D level techs can make more money then A techs( gravy is gravy) and none of us are paid what we need to make..or should make...wish there was a union still....



I'm just not sure what you're getting at here... services (maintenance/repair, installation, construction) are one category of "blue collar" job that it will always be physically impossible to do anywhere but on-site. how is an increase in foreign manufacturing connected to your dissatisfaction with your career?

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

MAY 25, 2008 09:52 PM

mercurius said:

SockPuppet said:
As the price of oil goes ever up, you might start seeing those tags again.



The weakness of the US Dollar must surely be of some benefit to US based manufacturers. A weak dollar pushes up the price of oil (and hence the cost of freight) and also makes imports less attractive due to the reduced buying power of the dollar.

Although I suppose that if the goods are manufactured in a country which pegs its currency to the dollar the weakness of the dollar might not make such a difference. Similarly if the goods are manufactured in a country that is situated fairly near to the US then the increased price of oil (and hence freight) would not make such a pronounced difference.



It is a slight benefit to our exports.

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

MAY 25, 2008 09:53 PM

SockPuppet said:

mercurius said:
I wonder how the weak dollar affects US agriculture. Similar arguments might apply as for manufactured goods. However, thinking about it I wonder if agricultural production costs can be affected in surprising ways by the price of oil.


  • Modern agriculture is heavily reliant on fertilisers to sustain high yields

  • Fertilisers are made using ammonia

  • Ammonia is made by combining Nitrogen and Hydrogen using the Haber Process

  • Currently the most cost effective way to produce Hydrogen gas in the industrial quantities required for the fertiliser industry is to extract it from fossil fuels.

  • Fossil fuels are currently undergoing a price rise, which is partly due to the weakness of the US Dollar and partly due to failure of fossil fuel production to rise in line with the increased demand from developing economies such as China and India.

  • Fertilisers are more expensive and this increases agricultural costs making food more expensive.



Hence, although a weaker dollar would in theory help US farmers by making US agricultural produce more competitive on price, the higher cost of fertiliser might negate this.

Of course, rising fertiliser costs will also affect farmers in other countries. One of the causes (by not the only one) of the current global increase in food prices is that Third World farmers are cultivating less land due to not having enough money to buy sufficient fertiliser. Obviously, farmers in rich countries with strong currencies and subsidies (eg farmers in the EU) will be better able to cope with rises in fertiliser prices.

Ok I don't know much about US agriculture so I would be interested to know what other people think about this. For example, do US farmers get subsidies which will keep the price down regardless of rising fertiliser costs. Do they? I don't know?



I do know that US farming is quite heavily subsidised (though I don't think it's a EU CAP levels). I don't know whether there are specific subsidies for fertiliser, etc..

Generally, the price of food is largely dictated by the price of oil; oil makes fertiliser, oil fuels the agricultural machines (tractors etc.) and the trucks that move the produce, oil fuels (some of) the factories which process the food.
As the cost of fuel goes up, we might start seeing a movement of labour back into agriculture.

Elsewhere in the world, I suspect the price of oil doesn't matter quite as much, because farming is less industrialised.



The government pretty much runs our agriculture business. They still pay people to plant, and pay them to burn.

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

MAY 25, 2008 09:54 PM

strndniowa said:

Stiles said:

strndniowa said:

As a country, we simply cannot survive by outsourcing manufacturing to other countries where they happen to have cheaper labor costs...
And this very skilled mechanic is ready to quit the business and get his law degree...at least being a starving lawyer sounds better...but who is going to fix your "hecha en Mexico" Chevrolet engine then?



Agreed. You and I have both been in the business long enough to know how badly the current system is broken, and how skilled and educated a good tech must be these days. It's not getting any easier, and with shop labor rates heading for 100$/hr on the coasts, it would be nice to see a more equitable distribution of that money to the guys who actually do the work.

Nobody's outsourcing fixing those cars and trucks to Mexico.



At least we have SOMETHING!!!
What disgusts me is that C and D level techs can make more money then A techs( gravy is gravy) and none of us are paid what we need to make..or should make...wish there was a union still....



Why don't you start one?

Mr_Mocata

Mr_Mocata

United Kingdom
OLD SKOOL

MAY 27, 2008 12:49 PM

LSlice said:

strndniowa said:

Stiles said:

strndniowa said:

As a country, we simply cannot survive by outsourcing manufacturing to other countries where they happen to have cheaper labor costs...
And this very skilled mechanic is ready to quit the business and get his law degree...at least being a starving lawyer sounds better...but who is going to fix your "hecha en Mexico" Chevrolet engine then?



Agreed. You and I have both been in the business long enough to know how badly the current system is broken, and how skilled and educated a good tech must be these days. It's not getting any easier, and with shop labor rates heading for 100$/hr on the coasts, it would be nice to see a more equitable distribution of that money to the guys who actually do the work.

Nobody's outsourcing fixing those cars and trucks to Mexico.



At least we have SOMETHING!!!
What disgusts me is that C and D level techs can make more money then A techs( gravy is gravy) and none of us are paid what we need to make..or should make...wish there was a union still....



Why don't you start one?



Oh you don't get me I'm part of the union...


Cash

Cash

I'm lost
OLD SKOOL

MAY 27, 2008 01:22 PM

Things I own that are American Made:

All three of my Kershaw pocket knives
my USAF Pilot survival knife
(Oddly enough my Ka-Bar is NOT American made)

My '07 Jeep Wrangler was assembled in Ohio and, by available statistics, has 76% domestic parts.

An assortment of clothing


d20

d20

San Francisco, CA
September 2003

MAY 27, 2008 01:35 PM

Shalome said:
Blizzard Entertainment.



owned by the French! what are you, some kind of traitor? wink

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
seriously though, once we figure out how to ship things around the world with clean fuel, this horse will be even deader. either that, or someone will go all Star Trek on it and invent replicators and teleporters. imagine the labels after that:

Assembled in Both China and the USA at the Same Time with Awesome Quantum Laser Machines

Roethke

Roethke

SUICIDEGIRL

California, USA

MAY 27, 2008 01:47 PM

mercurius said:

SockPuppet said:
As the price of oil goes ever up, you might start seeing those tags again.



The weakness of the US Dollar must surely be of some benefit to US based manufacturers. A weak dollar pushes up the price of oil (and hence the cost of freight) and also makes imports less attractive due to the reduced buying power of the dollar.

Although I suppose that if the goods are manufactured in a country which pegs its currency to the dollar the weakness of the dollar might not make such a difference. Similarly if the goods are manufactured in a country that is situated fairly near to the US then the increased price of oil (and hence freight) would not make such a pronounced difference.


As a small business owner, it hasn't hurt that much as far as exporting finished products goes. The trouble is, I, like many businesses, import parts from other countries that go into the making of the finished products. Those items are now much more expensive.

scylis

scylis

Anchorage, AK
November 2004

MAY 27, 2008 02:02 PM

Cash said:
Things I own that are American Made:

All three of my Kershaw pocket knives
my USAF Pilot survival knife
(Oddly enough my Ka-Bar is NOT American made)

My '07 Jeep Wrangler was assembled in Ohio and, by available statistics, has 76% domestic parts.

An assortment of clothing




which model you got? something other than the standard leather handled classic version?

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Mokena, IL
January 2005

MAY 27, 2008 05:09 PM

d20 said:

Shalome said:
Blizzard Entertainment.



owned by the French! what are you, some kind of traitor? wink

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
seriously though, once we figure out how to ship things around the world with clean fuel, this horse will be even deader. either that, or someone will go all Star Trek on it and invent replicators and teleporters. imagine the labels after that:

Assembled in Both China and the USA at the Same Time with Awesome Quantum Laser Machines



I look forward to the day when I can read this label.

strndniowa

strndniowa

Grimes, IA
May 2007

MAY 27, 2008 08:08 PM

turin said:

strndniowa said:

Stiles said:

strndniowa said:

As a country, we simply cannot survive by outsourcing manufacturing to other countries where they happen to have cheaper labor costs...
And this very skilled mechanic is ready to quit the business and get his law degree...at least being a starving lawyer sounds better...but who is going to fix your "hecha en Mexico" Chevrolet engine then?



Agreed. You and I have both been in the business long enough to know how badly the current system is broken, and how skilled and educated a good tech must be these days. It's not getting any easier, and with shop labor rates heading for 100$/hr on the coasts, it would be nice to see a more equitable distribution of that money to the guys who actually do the work.

Nobody's outsourcing fixing those cars and trucks to Mexico.



At least we have SOMETHING!!!
What disgusts me is that C and D level techs can make more money then A techs( gravy is gravy) and none of us are paid what we need to make..or should make...wish there was a union still....



I'm just not sure what you're getting at here... services (maintenance/repair, installation, construction) are one category of "blue collar" job that it will always be physically impossible to do anywhere but on-site. how is an increase in foreign manufacturing connected to your dissatisfaction with your career?



I think that would have to do with the unskilled and semi-skilled people who kind of fix a car...sometimes...unless it takes real skill and specialized tools...who have driven down our wages...if these people had a job- or there was more regulation in my industry- we wouldn't be making 30-60 k a year..
or if the economy wasn't in the toilet for 8 different reasons...or if we weren't dealing with made with the cheapest parts cars...

strndniowa

strndniowa

Grimes, IA
May 2007

MAY 27, 2008 08:17 PM

mercurius said:

LSlice said:

strndniowa said:

Stiles said:

strndniowa said:

As a country, we simply cannot survive by outsourcing manufacturing to other countries where they happen to have cheaper labor costs...
And this very skilled mechanic is ready to quit the business and get his law degree...at least being a starving lawyer sounds better...but who is going to fix your "hecha en Mexico" Chevrolet engine then?



Agreed. You and I have both been in the business long enough to know how badly the current system is broken, and how skilled and educated a good tech must be these days. It's not getting any easier, and with shop labor rates heading for 100$/hr on the coasts, it would be nice to see a more equitable distribution of that money to the guys who actually do the work.

Nobody's outsourcing fixing those cars and trucks to Mexico.



At least we have SOMETHING!!!
What disgusts me is that C and D level techs can make more money then A techs( gravy is gravy) and none of us are paid what we need to make..or should make...wish there was a union still....



Why don't you start one?



Oh you don't get me I'm part of the union...




I'm thinking of:
An entirely different countrysmile
An entirely different situation smile
And kind of insulted...

strndniowa

strndniowa

Grimes, IA
May 2007

MAY 27, 2008 08:22 PM

LSlice said:

strndniowa said:

Stiles said:

strndniowa said:

As a country, we simply cannot survive by outsourcing manufacturing to other countries where they happen to have cheaper labor costs...
And this very skilled mechanic is ready to quit the business and get his law degree...at least being a starving lawyer sounds better...but who is going to fix your "hecha en Mexico" Chevrolet engine then?



Agreed. You and I have both been in the business long enough to know how badly the current system is broken, and how skilled and educated a good tech must be these days. It's not getting any easier, and with shop labor rates heading for 100$/hr on the coasts, it would be nice to see a more equitable distribution of that money to the guys who actually do the work.

Nobody's outsourcing fixing those cars and trucks to Mexico.



At least we have SOMETHING!!!
What disgusts me is that C and D level techs can make more money then A techs( gravy is gravy) and none of us are paid what we need to make..or should make...wish there was a union still....



Why don't you start one?


Good idea- now why didn't I think of that...not quite that easy, I'm afraid...
UAW involvement in my industry ended before I started...

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