A New Libertarian Hero?

livertarian said:
That is a very fair argument. My perspective is limited to my experiences - I live in D.C., where the per-child education spending has been in the top 3 nationwide for years, but we have one of the worst public school systems in the country, in terms of graduation rates and test scores. A teacher friend of mine told me, "Schools can't teach kids to value education." That makes sense to me, though it's sad. They pour billions into the system, but many parents are as distrustful of the system as the kids, and few benefit. My position is not to give up, however. I suspect that D.C. might have needs that are particular to D.C. NCLB is a notorious failure in the District, but the funding is deemed essential so they keep flogging a dead horse. I say, (and some D.C. area op-eds agree,) that we need to wean ourselves off the federal carrot and stick approach, and focus on finding something that resonates with the kids. I don't have answers, except that the billions spent are not worth the very few children who thrive in this environment.

abbazappa said:

Actually yes I think it would not be a problem here in America:

First not many parents would let there kids work in a factory now a days. Then take into account that with the internet, communication and getting information is faster then ever before, so if a company was using child labor here in the States people will find out. Then lastly we have as citizens have the buying power which is a lot more effective then the Government. We get to decided where we spend out money so if a company is using child labor and we know about it we can decide to not spend our money there and then that company would fail.

Times have changed and it's not like if the Federal government was scaled back we as a society would all of a sudden change back to the days of child labor and no quality control. So thinking that with out the government being in control of every thing will bring about child labor and then pointing out the jungle is just straw man arguments since it doesn't take into account the change of society and how we view the world around us.

Old_Fritz said:
Alright, there's a lot here that's not going to be settled tonight or any time soon, but let me say I grew up in DC, so I'm well aware of a lot of the social issues.

1) NCLB is a fucking joke. I haven't met a single teacher who does not believe this. Just because this "answer" came from the FG doesn't mean there aren't solutions from the FG that aren't viable. It means Bush and his education advisers are fucking douches. That and the fact he needed a bunch of dumb HS grads to go to die in Iraq.

2) RE: "schools can't teach kids to appreciate education." No, it can't. But I'll refer to my previous comment. It allows those that do that opportunity, and among those children there are certainly those who's parents don't appreciate education that would otherwise be unable to obtain one.

Knowing several teachers, I'm well aware of many of the issues surrounding problems with education, but most of them don't stem from the education system. The problems stem from poverty and apathy. Certainly, ignoring these individuals won't make them less apathetic. It's not going to motivate them.

[side note: I don't agree with a "welfare state" but I don't agree with a "leave the fuckers behind state" either. There has to be an element of motivation and an element of support. Eradicating standards and practices of educating the public is a "leave the fuckers behind" approach.]

3) Surely, the "carrot and stick approach" isn't helpful. The system needs to be fundamentally revamped from within. It requires creative thinking in addition to incentives who give selflessly for the public (this is probably the thing I have the hardest time understanding about hardcore Libertarians. As humans, we're social. We're supposed to look out for one another. Saying I'm all set, fuck everyone else just doesn't jive. Hell there are monkeys in the Northern Japan that fucking drag their handicapped fellow monkey around the snow capped peaks of the mountains). Fundamentally revamped, however, does not mean abandoned. It's not the goal that's the problem, it's the approach. To lots of people swiping the Dept. of Educ. means erasing the goal as a society and leaving it to the individual, and practically speaking they're correct.

livertarian said:

I agree with you if you are talking about local government, and in some cases state gov't. But Washington D.C. is a place that defies reality in my opinion.

wildswan said:

I don't get the myth of state government being different and more effective than Federal Government. There can be, and are, many abuses on the state/local levels.

livertarian said:

The SEC knew exactly how Enron's accounting worked; the accountants were tucking away money into loss-leader spinoff companies that paid the executives exclusively, and avoided reporting losses to the shareholders. This was legal. The SEC knows the loopholes. It took Enron's crash and the revelation of these procedures to convince the public that what the SEC deemed legal was, quite arguably, wrong. The SEC does not champion fairness in the stock market. Regulations only happen when the jig is finally up. Thanks, Joe Kennedy.

livertarian said:
Libs definitely give off a vibe that can be anti-social, sure, and I am not a fan either. I simply remain suspicious of bureaucratic efforts to help. I will pick up that handicapped monkey and help get him home, every time. My beef is specifically and pointedly the federal government, because I am a self-employed person who has to file every three months, and then see how this money gets spent (Iraq, Drug War, and a whole shitload of programs that seem ineffective-to-harmful.) The states will come more under my scrutiny once I am satisfied that the federal gov't has been appropriately humbled for the people. This will likely never happen, but this is my concern Dude.

IDGAS said:

You need to provide support for your claims without the documentation you are just making $hit-up

You also skipped this: What do you think the role of the SEC is, how would it be better to have 50 mini-SECs, do you know what the cost of doing business would become?

livertarian said:

I don't buy that either. I will argue, however, that our votes are far more effective in smaller electorates. At the local level, I feel like I can make a difference. At the state level, maybe not so much. At the federal level, I may as well not exist.

wildswan said:
I take a stab at it: Cause the number 50 is bigger than the number 1.

livertarian said:
A teacher friend of mine told me, "Schools can't teach kids to value education." That makes sense to me, though it's sad.

LSlice said:
The Christians have a huge problem with pot smokers? Fine, let the pot smokers all move to one state and let the Christians have a different state.

LSlice said:
I think the problem in focusing on arbitarty scores, and rewarding schools that meet those scores, is the incentive to have the kids simply perform well on tests, rather then comprehend the knowldge. I know at the high school I went to for awhile, the system had largely degenerated into one where the teachers turned a complete blind eye to organized cheating as long as the test scores resulted in money coming in. Wouldn't it be better if you had a system where the kids and parents graded the school and teachers?