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attn_ho

attn_ho

Brooklyn, NY
February 2004

FEB 29, 2008 03:58 PM

coyotemike said:

Priapos said:

attn_ho said:
how did these employees get to this point, where theyre holding down one of their fellow coworkers underwater?


Scary what people will do when directed by someone in authority, isn't it?



Scary? Yes.
New? Not so much.



"you volunteered didnt you?"
"yeah, but"
"were PAYING you arent we?"
"well yeah"
ZZAPP!
"you can keep the five bucks!"
"I WILL!"

AngelDevoid

AngelDevoid

USA
January 2008

FEB 29, 2008 04:11 PM

Priapos said:

AngelDevoid said:
It forces you to intake water because it forces the gag reflex. When you put cold water over cloth, it evaporates rapidly and forces air out of your lungs. You are left without oxygen.



I think the idea is that you do it head angled down to minimize water inhalation while simulating drowning. The bold bit makes no scientific sense to me.



You are right, that is most likely not the mechanic to cause the gag reflex. I suffer from exercise-induced athsma and that is what it feels like to me if have cold water flowing over or near my face. The air just rushes out of my lungs. I was projecting to waterboarding. In my case it is because of cold air going past my nasal passages while my lungs have warmer air. My lungs constrict like an athsma attack, but it goes away as soon as I have a short bit of time away from the cold or I get cold air into my lungs. I do not inflame like an athsma attack, yet am prevented from collecting oxygen.

I think the inclination of the head is to prevent water inhalation, as you do, but it might also be a similar crossed mechanic in which if you have water in your nasal passages, your body thinks you are drowning and wants to force the water out without knowing if it has water or air in the lungs. I guess someone could dip their head upside down into a tub as an experiment if they wanted to check.

But a cloth with water on it would evaporate the water. All water at all states is always evaporating and solidifying. Except when it evaporates it leaves the source of the heat and dissipates as gas. The source of the heat would be the lungs/body. The cloth would cause an imbalance in pressure. Evaporate rapidly is a gross misstatement. The imbalance in pressure would also most likely be overwritten by the lack of seal with the cloth.

AngelDevoid

AngelDevoid

USA
January 2008

FEB 29, 2008 04:36 PM

bean said:

AngelDevoid said:

bean said:

AngelDevoid said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
The reason waterboarding seems like it is a cleaner form of torture is the same reason it is so much more by definition the process toward drowning. It forces you to intake water because it forces the gag reflex. When you put cold water over cloth, it evaporates rapidly and forces air out of your lungs. You are left without oxygen.

Actual drowning is death due to the lack of oxygen in connection with liquid. It does not mean your lungs are full of liquid. In most cases it is not. The liquid just prevents the oxygen from getting through. Those that drown in shallow water for instance do not have lungs full of water. They just can't get air.

In this similar case, you cannot get air. The difference is they (the administrators) control the timing such that they can predict the amount of time the person is without oxygen. It starts immediately instead of being dependent on how long the victim can hold their breath.

By being able to more reliably forestall death, they consider this a cleaner form of torture. Your body does not care if it is poison gas, constricted muscles, water, or asthma that causes lack of oxygen. It just experiences the lack of oxygen.



Nessuno said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
This is disturbing indeed. If waterboarding itself isn't illegal then it looks like it'll come down to proving wether or not it was voluntary. Can anyone confirm if it is indeed against the law to waterboard voluntary or not?

Briefly playing the devil's advocate here, this strikes me as interesting.


The lawsuit names both Prosper and Christopherson as defendants, alleging assault and battery, wrongful termination and intentional infliction of emotional distress



Wrongful termination means he was fired. What was he fired for? Is he exagerating to get back at his bosses?

I'm more inclined to believe the poor guy and it's pretty obvious his supervisor was an ass, but I'm suspicious whenever money is involved.

Another note.


Hudgens said he contacted Egan after leaving Prosper at the urging his brother. He said he is not sure why he didn't report the incident to police.

"I didn't know what to do. Obviously, I'd never been in this type of situation before," he said. "The thought didn't cross my mind to do it at the time."



That seems suspicious too.

I'm just looking at this with a critical eye.



SPOILERS! (Click to view)


Who commits the act is important. Because it supposedly can be a state you can be brought out of without permanent damage, knowing the method and timing is important. The reason there is not permanent damage is because our brains are built to shut down with lack of oxygen. Again, it is time dependent. The feature of waterboarding is time compression of the whole act. It does not remove pain, unconsciousness, brain damage, or death. It just changes the timeline. Pain has an immediate timeline.

If you ask someone to shoot you with a gun because you want to feel the bullet. They will still get charged. That is assault, even if you asked for it. If you want to take the tack that this was voluntary, they would have to have foreknowledge of the full ramifications of what they were asking for and those that administered it would also have to have full knowledge of the consequences (to be indemnified against recklessness).

But this was a case of a person not in power (the employee), being asked by the employer to do it. Power structure always has importance. That is why rape is defined to include coercion. Another thing to consider is whether he had a safe action (since he would have no way of saying much). That would help the employer say it was agreed upon. The court could still see this as an unreasonable burden upon an employee in a competitive field.

If you are forced to take a road with potholes... it does not mean the road should have potholes. You didn't choose the road for the potholes. You chose it for the destination.


I think you may have entirely missed the point Nessuno was making.



SPOILERS! (Click to view)
What happened here was that after I quoted his post, I forgot to move up my preamble to before the quote and leave the response below. The first four paragraphs were not in response to his post, just explaining waterboarding. The last four dealt with his point. I wanted to include the first part to explain why it had to be administrated by someone knowledgeble/responsible/licensed. So I could put its legality aside as he wanted and get to working on how, even if entered to of free will, perpetrating it in some cases could be against the law.

Corrected.



His point was that he's remaining skeptical about the case because the guy didn't report it right away and because money is involved. I'm struggling to see how anything you said relates to that. I don't mean to harp on you about it or anything, I'm just curious whether I'm missing something or, if not, how we can bridge the disconnect that's apparent here.



Nessuno said:
This is disturbing indeed. If waterboarding itself isn't illegal then it looks like it'll come down to proving wether or not it was voluntary. Can anyone confirm if it is indeed against the law to waterboard voluntary or not?

Briefly playing the devil's advocate here, this strikes me as interesting...

...

I'm more inclined to believe the poor guy and it's pretty obvious his supervisor was an ass, but I'm suspicious whenever money is involved.

....

That seems suspicious too.

I'm just looking at this with a critical eye.



I started at the top and the way I read it, he asked about the legality of voluntary waterboarding, which was the part I was answering. I really made a mistake in not editing the quote (not like my responses don't get too long already). I read the rest as him playing devil's advocate and therefore answering someone else (the first post). He added two additional points that had not been added before.

The rest had only a rhetorical question. Also, I read the last "critical" as thorough, instead of being against, since he was pointing out he was playing devil's advocate. So I saw his skepticism as following from the thoroughness and his last line as unnecessarily apologetic for digression as the one leading to his devil's advocacy (I do the same thing but worse)

On the first run through, I just saw the question, skimmed the devil's advocate portion (it is confusing to have someone support a position they don't believe in), quoted, answered, forgot to move my text, and hit reply.

bean

bean

STAFF

Los Angeles, CA

FEB 29, 2008 05:16 PM

AngelDevoid said:
I started at the top and the way I read it, he asked about the legality of voluntary waterboarding, which was the part I was answering. I really made a mistake in not editing the quote (not like my responses don't get too long already). I read the rest as him playing devil's advocate and therefore answering someone else (the first post). He added two additional points that had not been added before.

The rest had only a rhetorical question. Also, I read the last "critical" as thorough, instead of being against, since he was pointing out he was playing devil's advocate. So I saw his skepticism as following from the thoroughness and his last line as unnecessarily apologetic for digression as the one leading to his devil's advocacy (I do the same thing but worse)

On the first run through, I just saw the question, skimmed the devil's advocate portion (it is confusing to have someone support a position they don't believe in), quoted, answered, forgot to move my text, and hit reply.



Ah okay, that makes much more sense. smile

IDGAS

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY
March 2004

FEB 29, 2008 06:47 PM

Small Wars Journal has two very good pages on water boarding. The first is by Malcolm Nance "Waterboarding is Torture... Period" at the bottom of the page is an extensive list of links. The second page from SWJ is a reply to Nance's article Waterboarding: A Tool of Political Gotcha by Bing West.

Yesterday (2008/02/28) Al Jazeera Magazine has a good article by Karen J. Greenberg, the Executive Director of the Center on Law and Security at the NYU School of Law, titled Barbarism Lite: Visiting the Torture Museum

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

FEB 29, 2008 06:49 PM

bald_eagle said:
Voluntariness is relative. There's this whole 'he's the boss and it's my job' thing. Beyond that, there's the question of informed consent. I doubt if the guy had any idea how bad it would be.

The money does make it somewhat questionable. But there's very little else you can get from a law suit.

Whether the police should have been called is questionable. I doubt that a criminal prosecution would hold, with the consent thing being as fuzzy as it is. But a civil remedy could well be in order.



Conclusion: Get it in writing.

Get a written description of what's going to happen. With signatures.

Bastardo

Bastardo

Boston, MA
January 2005

FEB 29, 2008 07:51 PM

FearTheReaper said:
Man, this would have been a great thread for our zotted waterboard lover.



Awww, I always miss the good zots!

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

FEB 29, 2008 08:38 PM

God you socialist commie hippy sons of bitches don't fucking quit, the moment you all read SALESMAN it should have been a tip off that we were not dealing with a human being. Wahhh they poured water in his mouth, jesus christ I pour water in my mouth every day it's called being thirsty and taking a drink, the only difference here is that when I do it I don't sue the city of Atlanta for pumping cool refreshing torture into my glass.

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

FEB 29, 2008 08:46 PM

Colinism said:
God you socialist commie hippy sons of bitches don't fucking quit, the moment you all read SALESMAN it should have been a tip off that we were not dealing with a human being. Wahhh they poured water in his mouth, jesus christ I pour water in my mouth every day it's called being thirsty and taking a drink, the only difference here is that when I do it I don't sue the city of Atlanta for pumping cool refreshing torture into my glass.



I thought Atlanta ran out of water

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

FEB 29, 2008 08:50 PM

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:
God you socialist commie hippy sons of bitches don't fucking quit, the moment you all read SALESMAN it should have been a tip off that we were not dealing with a human being. Wahhh they poured water in his mouth, jesus christ I pour water in my mouth every day it's called being thirsty and taking a drink, the only difference here is that when I do it I don't sue the city of Atlanta for pumping cool refreshing torture into my glass.



I thought Atlanta ran out of water



No, we have plenty, it's just that if they let us have any of it we might "accidently" commit crimes against humanity by offering it to each other.

attn_ho

attn_ho

Brooklyn, NY
February 2004

FEB 29, 2008 08:51 PM

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:
God you socialist commie hippy sons of bitches don't fucking quit, the moment you all read SALESMAN it should have been a tip off that we were not dealing with a human being. Wahhh they poured water in his mouth, jesus christ I pour water in my mouth every day it's called being thirsty and taking a drink, the only difference here is that when I do it I don't sue the city of Atlanta for pumping cool refreshing torture into my glass.



I thought Atlanta ran out of water



No, we have plenty, it's just that if they let us have any of it we might "accidently" commit crimes against humanity by offering it to each other.


i dont know how you live with yourself, you coke drinking, waterboarding gun toting FASCICST

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

FEB 29, 2008 08:57 PM

attn_ho said:

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:
God you socialist commie hippy sons of bitches don't fucking quit, the moment you all read SALESMAN it should have been a tip off that we were not dealing with a human being. Wahhh they poured water in his mouth, jesus christ I pour water in my mouth every day it's called being thirsty and taking a drink, the only difference here is that when I do it I don't sue the city of Atlanta for pumping cool refreshing torture into my glass.



I thought Atlanta ran out of water



No, we have plenty, it's just that if they let us have any of it we might "accidently" commit crimes against humanity by offering it to each other.


i dont know how you live with yourself, you coke drinking, waterboarding gun toting FASCICST



I live just fine you coffee drinking, hydrophobic, gun banning lover of the nanny state. Hey here is a thought why don't you sue maxwell house for making waterboarding good to the last drop.

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

FEB 29, 2008 09:03 PM

attn_ho said:

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:
God you socialist commie hippy sons of bitches don't fucking quit, the moment you all read SALESMAN it should have been a tip off that we were not dealing with a human being. Wahhh they poured water in his mouth, jesus christ I pour water in my mouth every day it's called being thirsty and taking a drink, the only difference here is that when I do it I don't sue the city of Atlanta for pumping cool refreshing torture into my glass.



I thought Atlanta ran out of water



No, we have plenty, it's just that if they let us have any of it we might "accidently" commit crimes against humanity by offering it to each other.


i dont know how you live with yourself, you coke drinking, waterboarding gun toting FASCICST



It's just not the same. frown Nice try, Colinism.

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

FEB 29, 2008 09:04 PM

Colinism said:

attn_ho said:

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:
God you socialist commie hippy sons of bitches don't fucking quit, the moment you all read SALESMAN it should have been a tip off that we were not dealing with a human being. Wahhh they poured water in his mouth, jesus christ I pour water in my mouth every day it's called being thirsty and taking a drink, the only difference here is that when I do it I don't sue the city of Atlanta for pumping cool refreshing torture into my glass.



I thought Atlanta ran out of water



No, we have plenty, it's just that if they let us have any of it we might "accidently" commit crimes against humanity by offering it to each other.


i dont know how you live with yourself, you coke drinking, waterboarding gun toting FASCICST



I live just fine you coffee drinking, hydrophobic, gun banning lover of the nanny state. Hey here is a thought why don't you sue maxwell house for making waterboarding good to the last drop.



Friends don't let friends drink Maxwell House/Folgers/Starbucks.

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

FEB 29, 2008 09:04 PM

coyotemike said:

attn_ho said:

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:
God you socialist commie hippy sons of bitches don't fucking quit, the moment you all read SALESMAN it should have been a tip off that we were not dealing with a human being. Wahhh they poured water in his mouth, jesus christ I pour water in my mouth every day it's called being thirsty and taking a drink, the only difference here is that when I do it I don't sue the city of Atlanta for pumping cool refreshing torture into my glass.



I thought Atlanta ran out of water



No, we have plenty, it's just that if they let us have any of it we might "accidently" commit crimes against humanity by offering it to each other.


i dont know how you live with yourself, you coke drinking, waterboarding gun toting FASCICST



It's just not the same. frown Nice try, Colinism.



Sorry I tried...... frown

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

FEB 29, 2008 09:06 PM

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

attn_ho said:

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:
God you socialist commie hippy sons of bitches don't fucking quit, the moment you all read SALESMAN it should have been a tip off that we were not dealing with a human being. Wahhh they poured water in his mouth, jesus christ I pour water in my mouth every day it's called being thirsty and taking a drink, the only difference here is that when I do it I don't sue the city of Atlanta for pumping cool refreshing torture into my glass.



I thought Atlanta ran out of water



No, we have plenty, it's just that if they let us have any of it we might "accidently" commit crimes against humanity by offering it to each other.


i dont know how you live with yourself, you coke drinking, waterboarding gun toting FASCICST



It's just not the same. frown Nice try, Colinism.



Sorry I tried...... frown



I don't blame you. You just don't have that combination of self-righteousness and stupidity. Some people are just born that way.

Bill_the_Cat

Bill_the_Cat

Vanier, ON
May 2005

FEB 29, 2008 09:28 PM

coyotemike said:
I don't blame you. You just don't have that combination of self-righteousness and stupidity. Some people are just born that way.



Hey. I Resemble that!

Kindle

Kindle

Houston, TX
March 2006

FEB 29, 2008 10:46 PM

Bill_the_Cat said:

coyotemike said:
I don't blame you. You just don't have that combination of self-righteousness and stupidity. Some people are just born that way.



Hey. I Resemble that!


It's true, you know.

Bill_the_Cat

Bill_the_Cat

Vanier, ON
May 2005

FEB 29, 2008 10:49 PM

Kindle said:

Bill_the_Cat said:

coyotemike said:
I don't blame you. You just don't have that combination of self-righteousness and stupidity. Some people are just born that way.



Hey. I Resemble that!


It's true, you know.



Well yeah. Would I have said it if it wasn't?

PRockGirlScout

PRockGirlScout

Portland, OR
October 2005

FEB 29, 2008 10:50 PM

MrCrisp said:
after the whole "drawing moustaches with permanent markers" thing, i just think this guy is batshit crazy.



He's very abusive and abusive people are able to survive and thrive in sales when they'd be totally fucked in any other setting.

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