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IDGAS

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY
March 2004

FEB 29, 2008 06:16 PM

Saraah said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

IDGAS said:

martinj_b52 said:
[SPOILER]

coyotemike said:
Long have xenophobes claimed that immigration causes crime. It has been used as an excuse to restrict Italian, Irish, Jewish, et al, and most recently Hispanic immigrants.

Whoopie

Seems the immigrant population is responsible for far fewer crimes than previously thought.


People born outside the United States make up about 35 percent of California's adult population but account for about 17 percent of the adult prison population, the report by the Public Policy Institute of California showed.


and


According to the report's authors the findings suggest that long-standing fears of immigration as a threat to public safety are unjustified. The report also noted that U.S.-born adult men are incarcerated at a rate more than 2 1/2 times greater than that of foreign-born men.



Granted, the study is only in California, but since they have one of the highest Hispanic populations, I'm guessing this is a pretty good indicator for the rest of the country.


"Our research indicates that limiting immigration, requiring higher educational levels to obtain visas, or spending more money to increase penalties against criminal immigrants will have little impact on public safety," said Kristin Butcher, co-author of the report and associate professor of economics at Wellesley College



This doesn't remove all the ammunition from the immigration fear-mongers. They will still be able to argue about them using "our" health-care system (usually paying cash, as opposed to abusing the system, like proper American citizens often do), and not speaking the language.

Oh, and the whole "being brown" thing. Can't forget that one.



Well, on the immigrant crime issue.....
Since California has a budget crisis and is planning to release 22,000 inmates out of the approximate 159,030 incarcerated men. Since 17% are illegal immigrants, we could, in theory, export 27,035 illegal immigrants back to their countries of origin and save an additional 20% over what our Governor is trying to do now.



"Seventeen percent of prisoners are foreign-born" does not equate to illegal immigrants.

Try to think before you post.


[/SPOILER]
Not agreeing on everything with Trolly McTrollerson, but in that case he's actually not far off. According to several sources, about 13-25% of California's prison population are, in fact, illegal immigrants, not just "foreign born".

San Francisco Chronicle

There's an article from the LA Times that was only in the print edition that put it at 1 in 4.

I don't know, I feel like studies like the one posted here actually contribute to muddying the debate, by not differentiating between legal and illegal immigration. In my experience the fear-based arguments about immigration are very rarely about legal immigration, and haven't been since the turn of the century. That may just be a cover for underlying racism, but the only way to expose someone as a closet racist, as opposed to someone who has legitimate concerns with consequences of illegal immigration, is to really put all the facts on the table.



If the numbers are different than the numbers are different. However the source used by "Trolly McTrollerson" did read "seventeen percent of prisoners are foreign-born." And wanting them all to be illegal immigrants will not make them so and he offered not alternate or supporting data.

The only source that you provided has

The pool of inmates that might be included in the program is huge: Of the nearly 171,000 inmates crowding state prisons, 22,478, or about 13 percent as of March 31, are undocumented immigrants or are suspected of being undocumented.


13% is a long way from 25%.

Being able to understand and interpret data is an important skill that our schools are not teaching. frown

Saraah

Saraah

Los Angeles, CA
March 2007

MAR 01, 2008 02:07 PM

IDGAS said:

Saraah said:
Not agreeing on everything with Trolly McTrollerson, but in that case he's actually not far off. According to several sources, about 13-25% of California's prison population are, in fact, illegal immigrants, not just "foreign born".

San Francisco Chronicle

There's an article from the LA Times that was only in the print edition that put it at 1 in 4.

I don't know, I feel like studies like the one posted here actually contribute to muddying the debate, by not differentiating between legal and illegal immigration. In my experience the fear-based arguments about immigration are very rarely about legal immigration, and haven't been since the turn of the century. That may just be a cover for underlying racism, but the only way to expose someone as a closet racist, as opposed to someone who has legitimate concerns with consequences of illegal immigration, is to really put all the facts on the table.



If the numbers are different than the numbers are different. However the source used by "Trolly McTrollerson" did read "seventeen percent of prisoners are foreign-born." And wanting them all to be illegal immigrants will not make them so and he offered not alternate or supporting data.

The only source that you provided has

The pool of inmates that might be included in the program is huge: Of the nearly 171,000 inmates crowding state prisons, 22,478, or about 13 percent as of March 31, are undocumented immigrants or are suspected of being undocumented.


13% is a long way from 25%.



Yes. It is. I noted that the other number came from an article last year in the print edition of the Los Angeles Times. Since the full text isn't available online,. I figured a quote of hte number and a cited source (i.e. the LA Times) would be sufficient for now. But Here is a link to the abstract. Feel free to pay for full access, but the quote I am referencing is "Federal officials estimated that about 40,000 of the 170,000 inmates who go through L.A. County jails each year are in the United States illegally."

IDGAS said:
Being able to understand and interpret data is an important skill that our schools are not teaching. frown



For someone who is stressing the importance of correct statistical
interpretation, that's a pretty broad generalization, don't you think?

And maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it seems a bit like a slam on my education and by extension, my intelligence. Which is odd, since you have no idea about either, and your problem with my post was actually you jumping the gun, not me "being [un]able to understand and interpret data".

If you want to have a pissing contest about the quality of our respective educations, I guess we can. But a) I will probably win and b) it's idiotic. A better solution would be amending the sweeping generalization you made about "our" schools, and leaving me out of it.

That said, no hard feelings! CE makes me testy. So does student loan debt. Combining CE with a perceived attack on the quality of my education is a highly inflammatory combo! wink You have been warned.

FearTheReaper

FearTheReaper

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

MAR 01, 2008 02:19 PM

Saraah said:
blah blah blah, I'm better than you



Saraah

Saraah

Los Angeles, CA
March 2007

MAR 01, 2008 02:39 PM

FearTheReaper said:

Saraah said:
blah blah blah, I'm better than you




Yup.

Hey, you're good at that! Aww...look who's ALSO smart! It's YOU! You're a little smarty! Yay for you! I will give you a balloon when I see you next time, for being such a smart, brave little boy!

FearTheReaper

FearTheReaper

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

MAR 01, 2008 02:41 PM

Saraah said:

FearTheReaper said:

Saraah said:
blah blah blah, I'm better than you




Yup.

Hey, you're good at that! Aww...look who's ALSO smart! It's YOU! You're a little smarty! Yay for you! I will give you a balloon when I see you next time, for being such a smart, brave little boy!



Thank you. I like balloons.

Varuka_Salt

Varuka_Salt

I'm lost
October 2006

MAR 01, 2008 02:55 PM

FearTheReaper said:

Saraah said:

FearTheReaper said:

Saraah said:
blah blah blah, I'm better than you




Yup.

Hey, you're good at that! Aww...look who's ALSO smart! It's YOU! You're a little smarty! Yay for you! I will give you a balloon when I see you next time, for being such a smart, brave little boy!



Thank you. I like balloons.


Especially if they are filled with coke, freshly excreted from an immigrants ass!!

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

MAR 01, 2008 03:10 PM

Shiny_Metal_Ass said:

FearTheReaper said:

Saraah said:

FearTheReaper said:

Saraah said:
blah blah blah, I'm better than you




Yup.

Hey, you're good at that! Aww...look who's ALSO smart! It's YOU! You're a little smarty! Yay for you! I will give you a balloon when I see you next time, for being such a smart, brave little boy!



Thank you. I like balloons.


Especially if they are filled with coke, freshly excreted from an immigrants ass!!



That's it, I'm putting magnets on your head.

stockula

stockula

Anchorage, AK
May 2003

MAR 02, 2008 12:33 AM

100% of iIlegal immigrants, ipso facto, are criminals.

scylis

scylis

USA
November 2004

MAR 02, 2008 12:37 AM

stockula said:
100% of iIlegal immigrants, ipso facto, are criminals.



science be praised, i'd never have known that if you hadn't mentioned it.

*golf clap*

stockula

stockula

Anchorage, AK
May 2003

MAR 02, 2008 01:02 AM

So naturally, you support stopping illegal immigration and enforcing the law. Because it is so obvious.

BlastProcessing

BlastProcessing

USA
OLD SKOOL

MAR 02, 2008 01:05 AM

Saraah said:

FearTheReaper said:

Saraah said:
blah blah blah, I'm better than you




Yup.

Hey, you're good at that! Aww...look who's ALSO smart! It's YOU! You're a little smarty! Yay for you! I will give you a balloon when I see you next time, for being such a smart, brave little boy!



You will not. Don't lie.

scylis

scylis

USA
November 2004

MAR 02, 2008 01:15 AM

stockula said:
So naturally, you support stopping illegal immigration and enforcing the law. Because it is so obvious.



100% of people who smoke/sell/possess pot are criminals.

stockula

stockula

Anchorage, AK
May 2003

MAR 02, 2008 01:25 AM

scylis said:

stockula said:
So naturally, you support stopping illegal immigration and enforcing the law. Because it is so obvious.



100% of people who smoke/sell/possess pot are criminals.



Yes

scylis

scylis

USA
November 2004

MAR 02, 2008 01:29 AM

stockula said:

scylis said:

stockula said:
So naturally, you support stopping illegal immigration and enforcing the law. Because it is so obvious.



100% of people who smoke/sell/possess pot are criminals.



Yes



So naturally you support stopping the illegal consumption and distribution of pot and enforcing the law. Because it is so obvious.

stockula

stockula

Anchorage, AK
May 2003

MAR 02, 2008 01:32 AM

Well, that's the point I am trying to make. Law enforcement is no slouch in busting dope growers and users but for some reason won't enforce laws against illegal immigrants. We all know it is perfectly capable of doing so, it goes against the demon weed. Why the reluctance to enforce the law against illegal immigrants?

DevilsReject

DevilsReject

Cleveland, OH
February 2007

MAR 02, 2008 01:40 AM

and here we go......

scylis

scylis

USA
November 2004

MAR 02, 2008 02:15 AM

stockula said:
Well, that's the point I am trying to make. Law enforcement is no slouch in busting dope growers and users but for some reason won't enforce laws against illegal immigrants. We all know it is perfectly capable of doing so, it goes against the demon weed. Why the reluctance to enforce the law against illegal immigrants?



i would have thought living up here would have shown you how stupid most of the US drug laws were. do you not have many friends up here, or something?

most of the illegal immigrants in the US are illegal only because we heavily increased the requirements for immigration. most of the people who came to this country looking for a better future wouldn't have gotten in by today's standards. they're only criminals because we've gotten a stick up our ass compared to the ideals we as a country once imagined we stood for.

stockula

stockula

Anchorage, AK
May 2003

MAR 02, 2008 02:21 AM

scylis said:

stockula said:
Well, that's the point I am trying to make. Law enforcement is no slouch in busting dope growers and users but for some reason won't enforce laws against illegal immigrants. We all know it is perfectly capable of doing so, it goes against the demon weed. Why the reluctance to enforce the law against illegal immigrants?



i would have thought living up here would have shown you how stupid most of the US drug laws were. do you not have many friends up here, or something?



I don't care about drugs. If people want to wreck their lives I dont care.

most of the illegal immigrants in the US are illegal only because we heavily increased the requirements for immigration. most of the people who came to this country looking for a better future wouldn't have gotten in by today's standards. they're only criminals because we've gotten a stick up our ass compared to the ideals we as a country once imagined we stood for.



Yes, it is a lot easier to ignore the law than follow it. However, it is still the law. And you must pay if you break it, and it is not right to reward scofflaws for breaking the law and reward them with amnesty while makeing people who follow the rules and become citizens legally go through procedural hell for several years.

scylis

scylis

USA
November 2004

MAR 02, 2008 02:42 AM

stockula said:

scylis said:

stockula said:
Well, that's the point I am trying to make. Law enforcement is no slouch in busting dope growers and users but for some reason won't enforce laws against illegal immigrants. We all know it is perfectly capable of doing so, it goes against the demon weed. Why the reluctance to enforce the law against illegal immigrants?



i would have thought living up here would have shown you how stupid most of the US drug laws were. do you not have many friends up here, or something?



I don't care about drugs. If people want to wreck their lives I dont care.

most of the illegal immigrants in the US are illegal only because we heavily increased the requirements for immigration. most of the people who came to this country looking for a better future wouldn't have gotten in by today's standards. they're only criminals because we've gotten a stick up our ass compared to the ideals we as a country once imagined we stood for.



Yes, it is a lot easier to ignore the law than follow it. However, it is still the law. And you must pay if you break it, and it is not right to reward scofflaws for breaking the law and reward them with amnesty while makeing people who follow the rules and become citizens legally go through procedural hell for several years.



just because it's a law doesn't make it right. they should not be blindly followed and upheld merely because they're law.

and it's the "procedural hell" that's in the wrong, i feel.

ASSH0LE

ASSH0LE

Las Vegas, NV
June 2003

MAR 02, 2008 03:21 PM

attn_ho said:
additionally, and sort of relatedly,


immigrants dont affect wages as much as we think. if this is true, IS there a reason to hate on the immigrants?



This data needs to be put into context, I think.

Nevada has one of the higher drop out rates in the country. Some of it is due to the school system, some of it is due to the fact that there's decent paying jobs out there that don't require a college or even high school diploma. In other words, drop out of high school and you can still become a cocktail waitress (once you're 21), a dancer, a waiter (at the right places a waiter can carry a mortgage), a dealer, a valet... Also consider that the numbers might not be for RECENT high school drop outs.

Money is inflated in most of the state of California (outside of the rural areas). Payscales are higher there. Homes tend to be one million plus. A dollar isn't worth a dollar there. So the two states at the top of that list have explanations.

Stiles

Stiles

Oakland, CA
November 2002

MAR 02, 2008 04:01 PM

stockula said:
Yes, it is a lot easier to ignore the law than follow it. However, it is still the law. And you must pay if you break it, and it is not right to reward scofflaws for breaking the law and reward them with amnesty while makeing people who follow the rules and become citizens legally go through procedural hell for several years.



So you always drive under the speed limit, then?

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