Boards > Current Events > NEWS: California Woman May Have Voted Herself Out Of The Country

NickFaust

USA

April 2004

JUN 27, 2007 07:53 AM

brooklynhero said:
I personally think the immigration issue is severely out of whack - and I'm not going to wax philisophical about how we are "all immigrants." But for a child to be raised in this country - and apparently become a productive member of society - enough to mobilize and participate in local politics - then her removal and possible deportation speaks strongly about our mission as a country - and the apparent smoke we've been blowing up the asses of hopefuls in other countries to "get a slice of the American Dream."

Try this on for size.

Infants that flee mexico and other countries to come to NYC - so their parents can work their asses off providing for their family here AND their relatives back home - grow up in the city public schools - and when it comes time to graduate and go to college - cannot get a college loan - effectively squashing their dreams of higher education unless they gain citizenship - my question is - at what agei s someone considered young enough to just BE a US citizen?

here's an article about immigrant kids getting sandbagged by the system

These kids are as american as I am. Let them go to college and get a fucking education.

It sucks that the kids are getting denied college loans, but the fact remains that they cames here illegaly. Whether it was by their doing or (in all of these cases) their parent's doing, it was still illegal to sneak across the border, outstay their visa, do whatever they did to get here without documentation. It's unfortunate for the kids that their parents didn't respect them enough to ensure that they would have a secure future. I don't care if they've been contributing to our society for 100 years - it's forfeit to them if they have been contributing illegaly. Kinda like robbing a bank to give the money to cancer research...it's still illegal.

This attitude is as naive as it is self-destructive. The nation has far more to gain from seeing that these people have opportunities for advancement than hewing to some perverse penalties based on technical rigidity.

Uncognitive

Brooklyn, NY

May 2003

JUN 27, 2007 08:15 AM

Untimely said:

bairdduvessa said:
i don't know if this has been said or not...but, shouldn't her status in the nation been caught when she registered to vote?

Apparently not...

....and this gives me a lot of interesting ideas...

You don't need to show proof of citizenship when registering to vote (at least in California), you just have to check the "Yes, I am a citizen" box.

Also, it's not a crime for a non-citizen to register to vote, just for them to actually vote.

Doxie

SUICIDEGIRL

Oregon, USA

JUN 27, 2007 08:21 AM

What the fuck.

SirPsychoSexy

Ridgewood, NJ

January 2004

JUN 27, 2007 08:48 AM

Uncognitive said:

Untimely said:

bairdduvessa said:
i don't know if this has been said or not...but, shouldn't her status in the nation been caught when she registered to vote?

Apparently not...

....and this gives me a lot of interesting ideas...

You don't need to show proof of citizenship when registering to vote (at least in California), you just have to check the "Yes, I am a citizen" box.

Also, it's not a crime for a non-citizen to register to vote, just for them to actually vote.

Well, checking a box that says you are a citizen when you are not, is falsifying government documents...
That is kind of a crime.

SirPsychoSexy

Ridgewood, NJ

January 2004

JUN 27, 2007 08:57 AM

NickFaust said:

SnowgodCCR said:

brooklynhero said:
I personally think the immigration issue is severely out of whack - and I'm not going to wax philisophical about how we are "all immigrants." But for a child to be raised in this country - and apparently become a productive member of society - enough to mobilize and participate in local politics - then her removal and possible deportation speaks strongly about our mission as a country - and the apparent smoke we've been blowing up the asses of hopefuls in other countries to "get a slice of the American Dream."

Try this on for size.

Infants that flee mexico and other countries to come to NYC - so their parents can work their asses off providing for their family here AND their relatives back home - grow up in the city public schools - and when it comes time to graduate and go to college - cannot get a college loan - effectively squashing their dreams of higher education unless they gain citizenship - my question is - at what agei s someone considered young enough to just BE a US citizen?

here's an article about immigrant kids getting sandbagged by the system

These kids are as american as I am. Let them go to college and get a fucking education.

It sucks that the kids are getting denied college loans, but the fact remains that they cames here illegaly. Whether it was by their doing or (in all of these cases) their parent's doing, it was still illegal to sneak across the border, outstay their visa, do whatever they did to get here without documentation. It's unfortunate for the kids that their parents didn't respect them enough to ensure that they would have a secure future. I don't care if they've been contributing to our society for 100 years - it's forfeit to them if they have been contributing illegaly. Kinda like robbing a bank to give the money to cancer research...it's still illegal.

This attitude is as naive as it is self-destructive. The nation has far more to gain from seeing that these people have opportunities for advancement than hewing to some perverse penalties based on technical rigidity.

Yeah, fuck all those laws. Fuck them in their stupid asses.
I'm gonna go 100MPH on the highway, knock down all my neighbors fences, and jaywalk.
Then when a government official tries to tell me what to do, I will tell them their ideas are "dumb" and "antiquated", and stopping my progress, so I shouldn't have to listen.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

SnowgodCCR

Derry, NH

November 2006

JUN 27, 2007 10:02 AM

brooklynhero said:

SnowgodCCR said:

brooklynhero said:
I personally think the immigration issue is severely out of whack - and I'm not going to wax philisophical about how we are "all immigrants." But for a child to be raised in this country - and apparently become a productive member of society - enough to mobilize and participate in local politics - then her removal and possible deportation speaks strongly about our mission as a country - and the apparent smoke we've been blowing up the asses of hopefuls in other countries to "get a slice of the American Dream."

Try this on for size.

Infants that flee mexico and other countries to come to NYC - so their parents can work their asses off providing for their family here AND their relatives back home - grow up in the city public schools - and when it comes time to graduate and go to college - cannot get a college loan - effectively squashing their dreams of higher education unless they gain citizenship - my question is - at what agei s someone considered young enough to just BE a US citizen?

here's an article about immigrant kids getting sandbagged by the system

These kids are as american as I am. Let them go to college and get a fucking education.

It sucks that the kids are getting denied college loans, but the fact remains that they cames here illegaly. Whether it was by their doing or (in all of these cases) their parent's doing, it was still illegal to sneak across the border, outstay their visa, do whatever they did to get here without documentation. It's unfortunate for the kids that their parents didn't respect them enough to ensure that they would have a secure future. I don't care if they've been contributing to our society for 100 years - it's forfeit to them if they have been contributing illegaly. Kinda like robbing a bank to give the money to cancer research...it's still illegal.

YOu're going to have to clairfy how an immigrant living below the poverty level in our country is "robbing a bank?"

Most Mexicans in NYC make little to no money - so whatever portion of their income you could tax wouldn't amount to much. But the earning potential of their college-educated children that should simply be granted citizenship if they attend all 12 years of formal education - is by far more. Most of these kids will want to do great things - and earn substantial amounts of money the same way their parents tried by coming here illegally.

What I'm proposing isn't rocket science here - it's that as a nation we should grant full citizenship to every child that completes 12 years (or at least 10 years - to cover the late bloomers and the geniuses) full citizenship - but they lose their citizenship in their native countries - it's a trade off. Then you give them all the money they need to complete college (which since most of these kids will be coming out of the poorest of households will fall mostly on subsidized loans and privately funded grants from the sponsoring college. Then, armed with an education and a REAL sense of work ethic - these supposed illegals enter our workforce legitimately and make collectively - exponentially more money for the city, state, and national governments through income taxes - more than backfilling the apparent "drain" their parents had.

I'm sure there would be special cases along the way - but I see no disadvantage to granting full citizenship to kids that in my opinion - are US citizens already.

Did I say they were robbing a bank? I drew a parallel, not a literal (or even figurative for that matter) description of what they are doing. I don't care what they make - they're making it illegaly, whether they're contributing to social security or not. Ship them back to mexico, and let them wait in line to come in LEGALLY, and then I don't give a shit. But the fact of the matter remains, they are here illegaly. My best friend's parents are legal immigrants from Colombia, they're great people, I love them to death. The went through the whole citizenship process, and they're pretty well off.

To go along with "poor immigrants living below the poverty level"...
Do you feel that we should be granting immunity to drug dealers who aren't making alot of money? Or maybe hitmen who can't find work? Damnit, I was trying to hold up an armored truck because I need money to bring my family here from Laos, that makes it ok, right?

All_Sewn_Up

Papua New Guinea

January 2007

JUN 27, 2007 10:44 AM

Doxie said:
What the fuck.

Exactly.

flowerchild

USA

January 2007

JUN 27, 2007 10:55 AM

You don't need to show proof of citizenship when registering to vote (at least in California), you just have to check the "Yes, I am a citizen" box.

ha!! lovely. it's no wonder people from other countries are confused about our laws, they're not clear even to people like me who were born here!

Also, it's not a crime for a non-citizen to register to vote, just for them to actually vote.

This is about as logical as the laws regarding radar detectors; it's not illegal to buy or sell them, or even own them in some cases, BUT it is illegal to use them. Exactly what kind of twisted logic is being employed by the people who create and approve these laws!?!

*shakes head*

Vestril

Coronado, CA

February 2003

JUN 27, 2007 11:10 AM

SnowgodCCR said:
It sucks that the kids are getting denied college loans, but the fact remains that they cames here illegaly. Whether it was by their doing or (in all of these cases) their parent's doing, it was still illegal to sneak across the border, outstay their visa, do whatever they did to get here without documentation. It's unfortunate for the kids that their parents didn't respect them enough to ensure that they would have a secure future. I don't care if they've been contributing to our society for 100 years - it's forfeit to them if they have been contributing illegaly. Kinda like robbing a bank to give the money to cancer research...it's still illegal.

Even the US Supreme Court didn't buy into the "it sucks but they came here illegally" argument when it came to primary education, so I think that comparing this to bank robbery isn't going to take us very far; it's an extremely gray issue and the "their parents screwed up so fuck 'em" argument clearly doesn't work either. At the point when they are trying to enter the college system, they may have been fully educated in the United States, this could be the only home they can remember. Do you send a kid whose parents are illegal immigrants back to Mexico if the kid never learned to speak Spanish?

If the legal side of the equation were as simple as you're trying to describe the US Supreme Court never would have made the ruling they did. Just to support my point a little bit more I'll quote this from the article brooklynhero linked:

In November, U.S. Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill., and 12 bipartisan co-sponsors reintroduced the DREAM (Development, Relief and Education of Alien Minors) Act. The bill was first introduced in 2003 by U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah. Under the bill, students who have been in the United States for five or more years, were brought to America when they were 15 years old or younger, are high school graduates and have kept out of trouble with the law could apply for conditional lawful permanent resident status.

SnowgodCCR

Derry, NH

November 2006

JUN 27, 2007 02:04 PM

As you can probally tell, I'm not the most articulate person when speaking over the internet.
The point I'm trying to make is, up to a certain point (i.e. age when they were illegaly brought into the country - if they were old enough to know it's wrong, then they're guilty of it too), the kids do deserve a break. I don't think that they deserve anything additional, but they should at least be eligible for basic benifits like college loans (but I think that everyone should get that, I had to leave a Canadian school because of lack of funding)...but they don't get anything above and beyond...just like if they were born-citizen middle-class white folk.

After reading the last quote you cited there....I fully agree with the court's ruling, but I don't think that the issue should be pushed any farther...how it is now seems to be a bit like our attitude towards illegal cubans (who can't enter legally anyway)...I realize that it's a fuzzy subject, but the fact remains for people who conciously enter the country illegaly- It's ILLEGAL.

SockPuppet

I'm lost

July 2006

JUN 27, 2007 03:33 PM

Untimely said:

bairdduvessa said:
i don't know if this has been said or not...but, shouldn't her status in the nation been caught when she registered to vote?

Apparently not...

....and this gives me a lot of interesting ideas...

Me too. I've been wondering how I could get to vote in US presidential elections for a while

SockPuppet

I'm lost

July 2006

JUN 27, 2007 03:37 PM

SnowgodCCR said:

brooklynhero said:

SnowgodCCR said:

brooklynhero said:
I personally think the immigration issue is severely out of whack - and I'm not going to wax philisophical about how we are "all immigrants." But for a child to be raised in this country - and apparently become a productive member of society - enough to mobilize and participate in local politics - then her removal and possible deportation speaks strongly about our mission as a country - and the apparent smoke we've been blowing up the asses of hopefuls in other countries to "get a slice of the American Dream."

Try this on for size.

Infants that flee mexico and other countries to come to NYC - so their parents can work their asses off providing for their family here AND their relatives back home - grow up in the city public schools - and when it comes time to graduate and go to college - cannot get a college loan - effectively squashing their dreams of higher education unless they gain citizenship - my question is - at what agei s someone considered young enough to just BE a US citizen?

here's an article about immigrant kids getting sandbagged by the system

These kids are as american as I am. Let them go to college and get a fucking education.

It sucks that the kids are getting denied college loans, but the fact remains that they cames here illegaly. Whether it was by their doing or (in all of these cases) their parent's doing, it was still illegal to sneak across the border, outstay their visa, do whatever they did to get here without documentation. It's unfortunate for the kids that their parents didn't respect them enough to ensure that they would have a secure future. I don't care if they've been contributing to our society for 100 years - it's forfeit to them if they have been contributing illegaly. Kinda like robbing a bank to give the money to cancer research...it's still illegal.

YOu're going to have to clairfy how an immigrant living below the poverty level in our country is "robbing a bank?"

Most Mexicans in NYC make little to no money - so whatever portion of their income you could tax wouldn't amount to much. But the earning potential of their college-educated children that should simply be granted citizenship if they attend all 12 years of formal education - is by far more. Most of these kids will want to do great things - and earn substantial amounts of money the same way their parents tried by coming here illegally.

What I'm proposing isn't rocket science here - it's that as a nation we should grant full citizenship to every child that completes 12 years (or at least 10 years - to cover the late bloomers and the geniuses) full citizenship - but they lose their citizenship in their native countries - it's a trade off. Then you give them all the money they need to complete college (which since most of these kids will be coming out of the poorest of households will fall mostly on subsidized loans and privately funded grants from the sponsoring college. Then, armed with an education and a REAL sense of work ethic - these supposed illegals enter our workforce legitimately and make collectively - exponentially more money for the city, state, and national governments through income taxes - more than backfilling the apparent "drain" their parents had.

I'm sure there would be special cases along the way - but I see no disadvantage to granting full citizenship to kids that in my opinion - are US citizens already.

Did I say they were robbing a bank? I drew a parallel, not a literal (or even figurative for that matter) description of what they are doing. I don't care what they make - they're making it illegaly, whether they're contributing to social security or not. Ship them back to mexico, and let them wait in line to come in LEGALLY, and then I don't give a shit. But the fact of the matter remains, they are here illegaly. My best friend's parents are legal immigrants from Colombia, they're great people, I love them to death. The went through the whole citizenship process, and they're pretty well off.

To go along with "poor immigrants living below the poverty level"...
Do you feel that we should be granting immunity to drug dealers who aren't making alot of money? Or maybe hitmen who can't find work? Damnit, I was trying to hold up an armored truck because I need money to bring my family here from Laos, that makes it ok, right?

LEWIS ALSAMARI
Lewis Alsamari is now an actor, who most recently starred in the film United 93. When he was 17 he was drafted into the Iraqi Army but eventually managed to escape to Jordan and then to Britain. He then embarked on a plan to rescue his family who were imprisoned by Saddam by fraudulently transfering £37,000 from the accounts of his employer.
Out of Iraq is published by Bantam Press.

Alz

Lincoln, NE

February 2007

JUN 27, 2007 03:41 PM

SirPsychoSexy said:

Uncognitive said:

Untimely said:

bairdduvessa said:
i don't know if this has been said or not...but, shouldn't her status in the nation been caught when she registered to vote?

Apparently not...

....and this gives me a lot of interesting ideas...

You don't need to show proof of citizenship when registering to vote (at least in California), you just have to check the "Yes, I am a citizen" box.

Also, it's not a crime for a non-citizen to register to vote, just for them to actually vote.

Well, checking a box that says you are a citizen when you are not, is falsifying government documents...
That is kind of a crime.

However, don't most documents requiring that sort of info (I know at doctor/dentist offices generally do) have some sort of statement that says 'To the best of my ability, this information is true.'? I think even tax forms have that on there. So is it really a crime if she really didn't know?

gutterman

Austin, TX

August 2003

JUN 27, 2007 06:38 PM

flowerchild said:

You don't need to show proof of citizenship when registering to vote (at least in California), you just have to check the "Yes, I am a citizen" box.

ha!! lovely. it's no wonder people from other countries are confused about our laws, they're not clear even to people like me who were born here!

Also, it's not a crime for a non-citizen to register to vote, just for them to actually vote.

This is about as logical as the laws regarding radar detectors; it's not illegal to buy or sell them, or even own them in some cases, BUT it is illegal to use them. Exactly what kind of twisted logic is being employed by the people who create and approve these laws!?!

*shakes head*

In most cases, it's legal to buy a handgun. And it's legal to own a handgun. But try running out on your lawn and showing it to the mailman real fast. That might be frowned upon.

And... "Are you a citizen?"
"I think so."
"What's your social security number?"
"I don't have one."
"Then fuckin' get one. THEN you run for office."

BOARDS:

TOPICS:

USA

April 2004

JUN 27, 2007 07:53 AM

Brooklyn, NY

May 2003

JUN 27, 2007 08:15 AM

SUICIDEGIRL

Oregon, USA

JUN 27, 2007 08:21 AM

Ridgewood, NJ

January 2004

JUN 27, 2007 08:48 AM

Ridgewood, NJ

January 2004

JUN 27, 2007 08:57 AM

Derry, NH

November 2006

JUN 27, 2007 10:02 AM

Papua New Guinea

January 2007

JUN 27, 2007 10:44 AM

USA

January 2007

JUN 27, 2007 10:55 AM

Coronado, CA

February 2003

JUN 27, 2007 11:10 AM

Derry, NH

November 2006

JUN 27, 2007 02:04 PM

I'm lost

July 2006

JUN 27, 2007 03:33 PM

I'm lost

July 2006

JUN 27, 2007 03:37 PM

Lincoln, NE

February 2007

JUN 27, 2007 03:41 PM

Austin, TX

August 2003

JUN 27, 2007 06:38 PM