NEWS: NRA Loses Switzerland As A Blah, Blah, Blah Point

Well I'll be. That's a neat little bit of law there.

Unfortunately I'm not sure if I'd be considered able-bodied, as my back was right fucked up in a car accident.

How can I be in a militia if I've never done shot a gun (BB guns not included)?

I do. I am a working mechanical engineer with license in your state. While making ammunition is harder than making a modern firearm, it is not that much harder.

It is not done by little mom & pop shops (as some firearms are made) because they cannot in this economy make ammo anything remotely as cheaply as a big firm that can afford large scale fully automated machinery can. This is like the firm I work for making bolts. Could we do it, sure, we cannot however do it and compete where huge firms make it will fully automated equipment in ton lot quantities. We specialize in equipment we know how to make cheaper or better than others.

However, change the laws such that making, having or selling ammo is illegal, and the price of black market ammo will go through the roof and it then will be economical to make ammo in your garage and sell it at like $10 per round, while now for large caliber pistol ammo you pay $0.25 per round.

Oh, by the way, the issue is not the cartridge holding pressure, they don't, they deform to the confines of the gun barrel and breach block. The gun barrel and breach block hold the pressure, the issue is the cartridge deforms and tears such that you cannot extract it after firing.

In other words the person who wrote about "make a high pressure cartridge casing from scratch" is the one talking out his behind. No casings hold pressure, the barrel and breach block do. The casing only acts as a seal on firing and a holder for the ammo to allow rapid loading.

The issue is to make the casing such that it is so close on the outside to the inside geometry of the barrel that it does not tear or deform too much and jam the gun after one shot.

No. You proposed that something has occurred. Produce some evidence for your proposition.

When you need to defend your life, it's not that hard to learn

I've shot a gun. I'm fucking English.

You are.

If the US were invaded and your state governor declares martial law he can send an officer of the militia (National Guard) to go and get some men to help fight.

As in a trained corporal (he is a non-commissioned officer) in your state National Guard can be given an order to goto your neighborhood and round up a squad of men, god help you if you refuse in time of war and emergency, the crimes of treason or desertion under fire might apply, both of which can get you a firing squad.

He can also round up weapons in private hands for use in defending the state, so if you do not have anything, the next stop for our hypothetical corporal is your local gun store to get any of the men who do not have their own weapons a gun. Then off to fight you go.

The Russians did stuff like that in WWII to fight the Germans (attack regular German infantry with raw militia who only had a gun for every other man, Stalingrad for example) , as did the USA in the war of 1812.

Stalingrad is also an excellent example of how effective militia can be against a modern well trained well equipped army. The workers of the Tractor Works ( a huge factory) in northern Stalingrad formed a scratch militia unit and counter attacked a German tank division and forced it to retreat several hundred yards and held the line till relieved by regular troops a few days later.

No you are proposing that I should give up my liberty prove your idea has any merit at all.

No

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-switzerland.htm

Percent of households with a handgun, 1991 (1)

United States 29%
Switzerland 14
Finland 7
Germany 7
Belgium 6
France 6
Canada 5
Norway 4
Europe 4
Australia 2
Netherlands 2
United Kingdom 1


This is by an anti-gun site by the way that goes into the whole BS of "gun murder" like it is better to be murdered with a knife.

Cars and trucks that use PUBLIC ROADS and so are STREET LEGAL are indeed so regulated on the basis of use of such roads. Those roads being public (government) property the legal basis of this regulation is the right of the owner of that property to regulate how it is used.

I have not been given a ticket for a (minor) at fault accident years ago as it was on private property and so the police had no traffic jurisdiction.

The sale manufacture, ownership and operation of offroad motor vehicles is almost unregulated. I drove my Uncle's tractor on his farm when I was about 11 and needed no license or learner's permit. Farm kids commonly learn to drive cars on private land long before they can get a learner's permit to drive on the road.

One can even build, and some people do, very, very fast cars that are not even slightly street legal that do not have to meet any such government regulations. Though if you want to race them you need to meet the regulations of the race track you race them at.

I wasn't really being serious. I was speaking more in practical terms like I don't drill, I don't go to a shooting range, I don't own a gun, or even fatigues. I do study hand to hand, staff, and sword fighting, so if anyone invents a time machine I'll be all set.

I get the abstract: if the Chinese invade I'll be picking up a gun a sniping their officers.

That goes for you too montestruc.

Well, I have a live shinken and wakizashi would that help?

I believe he was differentiating between military and non-military gun ownership. Your source just cites ownership. It doesn't say if they are military issued or not.

I'm not commenting on your larger point, but this is in fact true. In most states, police won't respond to accidents occurring in parking lots, because they are private property.

Handguns are only issued to officers, and in some nations senior NCOs. I do not think that officers in the Swiss military can make up that large a fraction of the population such that 14% of the population has an active service army or airforce officer in the household (the swiss do not have a navy).


Most of them are privates, and privates are not issued handguns, only a rifle.

Please find me the source of statistics you used to make this claim regarding Australia.

Kthnxbai.

yeah, don't generalise all western countries.

i think after reading all of these comments. the outstanding reason i can see for america's gun violence is all these people saying 'I obey the law, I'm not crazy, I deserve to have a gun'.

why do u need one?

is it just cause someone is trying to remove your right to own one?
is it for protection? if so, don't you think that logic is a little circular?

Maybe if you can use them to good effect.

An ability to be able to attack in near silence can be very useful in what is otherwise a gun fight. You have to get close enough to use them though and that is liable to get you killed faster.

Shinken are not very effective in my experiance (having thrown them for a while as a teen.) If it cannot reliably stick in a cardbord box, it is not going to kill someone, just piss them off. Then he shoots you.

I will give you that if you know what you are doing with it, a sword is as dangerous as any gun within it's reach, and you can even parry the other guy's gun and disarm him (literally), if it is within reach.

But you must get in reach first, which can get you killed. Note that historically honest to god swordsmen who were trained as swordsmen from early childhood lost to muzzle loading blackpowder flintlock guns so much of the time that they became almost extinct.

You are not going to do better against semi or fully automatic modern firearms.

I was a member of the LSU fencing club while in grad school, I love electric epee (equivelent to a rapier), hate foil, and human judged saber, and could not afford electric saber equipment at that time. I have fenced kendo a couple of times with some epee enthusiast friends. I also met a kendo master who demonstrated some stuff for us (he also had an interest in western fencing). So I have some grasp of the concepts.

Prove me wrong.

You're right. Your source specifies handguns. I overlooked that. Approximately 10% of the Swiss population is in the military according to the US State department, which means if 2% (that's just a guess are officers) the other 12% must then be relegated to private citizens. I haven't been paying attention to the broader strokes of this argument, so I'm not sure what the implication is, but thems the facts.

BUT: according to your own citation Switzerland is an example of strict gun control in comparison to the US and their murder rate by gun is approximately one fourth of the US, so, it looks like it might be working. No?

YOU MADE THE FUCKING CLAIM!

Back it up.

I've entered these discussions dozens of times before on this very site and I've proved people wrong when they've pulled statistics out of their ass. But at least they pulled something out of somewhere.

However, I'm fucked if someone's going to march like an arrogant fuckwad into the middle of Current Events and claim "The moon is made of green cheese! Prove me wrong!" and assume that reversing the burden of proof is somehow fucking acceptable.

YOU MADE THE FUCKING CLAIM! YOU BACK IT THE FUCK UP.

Kthnxbai.

Oh, fine then. We'll do it your way.

*waves wand*

You are hereby declared Proved Wrong!

We can disregard what you say on this or any other subject. You have been comprehensively refuted.

2005

2007

Your NRA at work.

Because of course, I actually said somewhere that a professional machine shop properly equipped with highly specialized equipment and staffed with licensed, certified engineers in the firearms business couldn't painstakingly churn out cartridge casings. Oh, wait. No, I didn't. I bet you can churn out suppressors and full auto sears, too. Pretty good market for those too, is that your new business plan?

Or it blows the bolt and/or slide back into your face and turns everything behind the chamber into shrapnel, because like it or not, the chamber and the bolt face ultimately contain and direct the pressure when in-battery, the cartridge itself must contain and expand evenly because it if fails to do so, the gun basically explodes.

Firstly, I never said anything like what you're rebutting, Nowhere was that even the vaguest reference to the mechanics of the process whatsoever. Secondly for a firearms engineer, you seem really fucking unclear what actually happens when that primer goes off. Perhaps you were confused by the "high pressure cartridge casing", but sorry, thats what it's fucking called. High pressure ammunition is a NATO standard: 28,000 PSI, which virtually any modern rifle exceeds and most military rifles and carbines nearly double. That's what you would have to make.

Really? Thats the issue? See if I were shooting, the issue I'd be most concerned with is that this:



or this



or this



didn't happen with my face three inches from the firing chamber.

Jammed gun my ass.

Yeah, I know, I linked the wrong pic, but this thread got more retarded than that picture a long time ago, so it stays.

What the fuck are you talking about? Your scenario would be governed by the constitutions and laws of fifty individual states, many of which, I'm sorry to say, proscribe martial law. No state, and indeed no condition of martial law possible in the US admits of forcible battlefield conscription by a non commissioned officer. Martial law in the US is the suspension of the enforceability of rights; the right of redress to the courts, not the abrogation of civil rights themselves, and there is a major open question as to whether even that is legally possible, given that the framers didn't delegate the authority particularly.

Sweet, so I can keep on pretending to fight imaginary enemies with my shinken and wakizashi without having to fear using them in actual combat. Besides, I'm the last person you'd want in a militia. I really hate fighting.