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punk

punk

Phoenix, AZ
January 2004

JUN 14, 2007 09:53 PM

Stiles said:

emotedcreations said:
I think the logic is this, although I'm just guessing. Suppose everyone got cars that ran on vegetable oil, who'd pay for the highways and streets? I guess the government is just asserting it's authority now, so that in the future there's no question.



ding ding ding!

Fuel tax is a use tax that pays for maintaining the roads and bridges. If you use those state/federal/local roads, you must pay for them with state/federal/local fuel taxes - and tolls too, in some places (another form of double taxation, if you're keeping score at home).

PS -

Gas Tax Rates By State



I get the logic, I just wasn't sure about the legal details.

It would be interesting to see how the fuel tax would adapt to future hybrid cars, like hydrogen/electric.

gdarklighter

gdarklighter

San Diego, CA
August 2005

JUN 14, 2007 09:55 PM

brooklynhero said:
Our little musician is paying roughly $2.58 for his veggie mobile per gallon (12 for a costco 5 gal jug of veg oil plus 7.5% sales tax)

But the funny thing is the state is techincally making more money off of him in sales tax. for every gallon he buys at the pump the state gets $0.009

But at costco the state gets $0.18 for every gallon of veggie oil Bob buys - a product he would not buy in such quantities without a super cool veggie car.

so Bob saves money AND the state makes more tax? GWHHAAAA?



Flawed comparison; he's using diesel, not gas. If you read the article, you'd note that he's actually paying more for his veggie-diesel than he would for regular diesel.

hadees

hadees

Austin, TX
December 2003

JUN 14, 2007 10:05 PM

I don't see why people are so angry about this. Seems pretty reasonable to me that if there is a fuel tax you pay it on all fuel regardless of if you make it yourself, in fact i was planning on getting a car that runs on biodiesel and i already knew I had to pay tax on the fuel I make. We do need more renewable fuel but like the article says the road construction is paid for by the fuel tax. If you want to argue they are spending too much on road construction so the tax can be lowered then that is reasonable but saying he shouldn't pay any tax means less money for the presumably needed road construction. I also think the idea of a fuel tax being used for road construction is a good idea since it directly taxes people on the proportion they use the roads. Well that is if you don't use the fuel for a generator or something similar.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

JUN 14, 2007 10:08 PM

punk said:
I get the logic, I just wasn't sure about the legal details.

It would be interesting to see how the fuel tax would adapt to future hybrid cars, like hydrogen/electric.

I didn't mean to suggest that you didn't get the logic I was just trying to clarify.

As far as the second part goes I could see an electrical line being designated as for car only which could be read as separate energy usage from electricity being used for others. The company could pay the tax and then charge you cost. Or something...

SouGei

SouGei

Blackwood, NJ
January 2007

JUN 14, 2007 10:10 PM

1. You don't need to modify a diesel engine for this, do you? What I've read says no.
2. How do you get caught doing this?
3. How would they know how much to tax? Can't randomly tax.
4. The whole "dependence on Middle East oil" is total bullshit. It has nothing to do with this story, but people never get tired of repeating this lie over and over. Wonder why?

SouGei

SouGei

Blackwood, NJ
January 2007

JUN 14, 2007 10:15 PM

Can't seem to edit that post for the link, sorry. Here it is.

Stiles

Stiles

Oakland, CA
November 2002

JUN 14, 2007 10:27 PM

aughtstar said:
1. You don't need to modify a diesel engine for this, do you? What I've read says no.
2. How do you get caught doing this?
3. How would they know how much to tax? Can't randomly tax.
4. The whole "dependence on Middle East oil" is total bullshit. It has nothing to do with this story, but people never get tired of repeating this lie over and over. Wonder why?



1) you don't need to modify the engine but you sure do need to extensively modify the entire fuel storage and delivery system on most diesel vehicles.

2) you get caught by driving through a state fuel checkpoint with a bumper sticker that reads " POWERED BY 100% VEGETABLE OIL".

3) The fine is for tax evasion. If there is (any) evidence you evaded tax, you pay the fine.

4) Oil is a globally traded commodity. Events affect the world market, so things that drive up the price of oil in Libya indirectly affect prices we pay for Texas crude -= even if we buy no Libyan oil whatsoever.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

JUN 14, 2007 10:33 PM

aughtstar said:
1. You don't need to modify a diesel engine for this, do you? What I've read says no.
2. How do you get caught doing this?
3. How would they know how much to tax? Can't randomly tax.
4. The whole "dependence on Middle East oil" is total bullshit. It has nothing to do with this story, but people never get tired of repeating this lie over and over. Wonder why?

The OP said dependence on foreign oil--not "dependence on Middle East oil". According to your article, which appears to be what I remember, although I thought we important more than what it stated from Venezuela, foreign oil consumption by the US approximates 63%. That's a definitely a dependence on foreign oil no matter how you cut it.

Also, of the 32% from OPEC countries it says "most of it comes from Saudi Arabia" whatever the hell that means. So if it is something like 20%, then yes, I'd have to say that's similarly a dependence on Middle Eastern Oil. If 20% of our oil supply dried up tomorrow, I guarantee you wouldn't be happy the next time you went to fill up your gas tank.

Basically, you're wrong. It's not bullshit. Maybe you meant to say something else or you read something in the article that wasn't there. I dunno. But what you stated in the thread is wrong.

Also, your article is claiming something entirely different from what you were.

fourchinnigan

fourchinnigan

Glendale, CA
August 2006

JUN 14, 2007 10:48 PM

By this same logic, shouldn't people who walk and take public transport also be fined for not paying fuel taxes?

s5

s5

STAFF

San Francisco, CA

JUN 14, 2007 10:58 PM

aughtstar said:
1. You don't need to modify a diesel engine for this, do you? What I've read says no.



To run pure vegetable oil, yes, you have to modify your car. You end up with two tanks: one tank to start up the engine and heat things up, and another tank with vegetable oil.

To run biodiesel, no, you don't need any modification. I run 100% biodiesel in my unmodified 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I drive up to the local biodiesel pump, fill up, and drive off. (And yes, taxes are included.) It's easy and I'm no longer giving money to the oil companies.

The difference between the two fuels is simple: biodiesel is processed vegetable oil. But the only people who run straight vegetable oil are old hippies and other misguided weirdos. Biodiesel works just as well and requires no modification to your diesel car.

(And I'd like to offer my apologies to any misguided weirdos reading this who might be offended by being compared to hippies.)

s5

s5

STAFF

San Francisco, CA

JUN 14, 2007 11:00 PM

fourchinnigan said:
By this same logic, shouldn't people who walk and take public transport also be fined for not paying fuel taxes?



Bus fare is a 100% tax. You pay the fare and 100% goes towards paying for the infrastructure.

s5

s5

STAFF

San Francisco, CA

JUN 14, 2007 11:06 PM

Bay Area biodiesel fans will recognize this picture:



Which is from Biofuel Oasis, the awesome women-run biodiesel co-op in Berkeley, CA.

But remember, biodiesel is different than straight veggie oil - it runs in diesel cars with no modifications, and we pay our fuel taxes just like everyone else.

Stiles

Stiles

Oakland, CA
November 2002

JUN 14, 2007 11:08 PM

fourchinnigan said:
By this same logic, shouldn't people who walk and take public transport also be fined for not paying fuel taxes?



No. You don't walk in the road. S5 covered fare-paying public transport, and the difference between Straight vegetable oil (SVO)/ Waste vegetable oil (WVO) and biodiesel.

teddybaar

teddybaar

Redmond, WA
OLD SKOOL

JUN 14, 2007 11:50 PM

So do people who drive more fuel efficient cars in NC have to pay higher fuel taxes?

Didn't think so.

That guy needs to mix in a few teaspoons of dino diesel, then I don't think the state would have a leg to stand on since he would be paying taxes on at least some of his fuel. He would just need to change his bumper sticker to "Goodbye 99% of OPEC".

AmnSpecial

AmnSpecial

Italy
May 2007

JUN 15, 2007 12:12 AM

SnowgodCCR said:

Cerwen said:
Itd be awesome if my Jeep ran on veggie oil. That'd be great....



It'd be awesome if Jeep would put out a fucking diesel so we could do so...

You know, it's shit along these lines that led to the revolutionary war....Maybe if we dump all the gasoline into boston harbor the government will get the message?



Jeep does make diesels. Look at the 05 and up Liberty's, diesel is any optional engine.

Emi

Emi

SUICIDEGIRL

USA

JUN 15, 2007 04:32 AM

how the hell you gonna tax a guy for gas he never even bought.
lame.

obee_one

obee_one

Fowlerville, MI
December 2003

JUN 15, 2007 05:59 AM

i am a highway contractor, and i live soley off of tax dollars, all of the projects i work on are fully government funded. i like the gas tax, sometimes i think it is getting a bad rap, when gas goes over 3.50 a gallon, but remember, most states have per gallon rates, not a percentage on the total sale, so, if it were 1.50 a gallon or 3.50 a gallon, you are still paying your 29.5 cents per gallon, no change. here in michigan, they add sales tax to it also, which irks people, but if the 6-8% you pay on the extra $2 a fill up really hurts you, you have bigger problems than that,

a little story problem: your car take 15 gallons to fill, you fill up once a week. that is 780 gallons a year. you are happy to pay 2.40 a gallon, but unhappy at 3.40 a gallon. that extra buck is just killing you, sure that is $780 over a year, work an extra hour a week to cover it, don't be a slacker. of that $780 you pay extra a year, included in that is sales tax, 6% here in michigan, so $46.80 goes to taxes and $733.20 goes to pay for gas. of the hundreds of thousands of drivers in michigan, that $46.80 of taxes you pay each year add up to a nice chunck on change for public schools, health care, and/or any of the other state programs. so, if you bitch about the taxes on gas, please don't bitch when your child's school goes to 40 kids per classroom, or closes.

now back to the gas tax: i do not want to go to a plan that has been floated, a mileage tax. each year, when you go to pay for your plate for your car, you pay a per mile fee, read right from your odometer. this is brought on by more efficient cars, i see the goverments bitch "hey you drive the same miles, but don't buy the gas to pay for it"

personally, i feel that if you spend the money to convert to veg. oil, you should still pay a fuel tax, because i believe that it is technically called a fuel tax, fuel could be gasoline, ethonal, desiel, veg. oil, or cow shit, if your car is fuelled by it, pay the tax.

now my bitch about the guy buying veg. oil from costco.. dumb ass, go to your local fast food place, arrange with them to pick up their used oil for free, it is better for fuel anyways, they would be happy to give it to you, because they pay for it to be taken away. and then pay your 29.5 cents a gallon to the state.

people, please remember, you get what you pay for.. roads and bridges are costly, and you use them all the time.. that extra $5 you might pay a year with an increased fuel tax is still a hell of a lot cheaper than a bent rim or a needed alignment caused by a terrible road.

my two cents..

obee_one

obee_one

Fowlerville, MI
December 2003

JUN 15, 2007 06:03 AM

fourchinnigan said:
By this same logic, shouldn't people who walk and take public transport also be fined for not paying fuel taxes?



not fined, they do pay the fuel tax, it is in the fare they pay for using the bus, or train. you don't think all costs are not covered by the fare?!

Trahern

Trahern

United Kingdom
March 2003

JUN 15, 2007 08:01 AM

If I understand correctly, they're fining this guy because they don't have a system set up for taxing alternative fuels.

Stiles

Stiles

Oakland, CA
November 2002

JUN 15, 2007 06:37 PM

teddybaar said:
So do people who drive more fuel efficient cars in NC have to pay higher fuel taxes?

Didn't think so.



Lighter, more fuel-efficient vehicles cause less road damage, and thus cost the government less in repairs per mile traveled.


That guy needs to mix in a few teaspoons of dino diesel, then I don't think the state would have a leg to stand on since he would be paying taxes on at least some of his fuel. He would just need to change his bumper sticker to "Goodbye 99% of OPEC".



It dosen't remotely work like that.

obee_one

obee_one

Fowlerville, MI
December 2003

JUN 19, 2007 10:41 AM

Trahern said:
If I understand correctly, they're fining this guy because they don't have a system set up for taxing alternative fuels.



i know in the state of michigan, if you buy something online, and do not pay the sales tax there, you must (by law) pay them when you fill out all the other tax forms for April 15th, but how many of us do that?! i am sure there is a form somewhere that can be filled out and taxes paid. taxes are fun that way.

montestruc

montestruc

Houston, TX
June 2004

JUN 25, 2007 10:18 AM

hellboy7 said:
OK, I am not a litigious person, but come on SUE THE GOV'T!!!! This sucks so many bullocks. I think, and I am not a lawyer, that the fuel tax only applies to petrol fuels manufactured by the oil industry. Also, you can't fine the man for not paying his taxes since he payed a sales tax applicable only to the goods he purchased. In other words, you can't tax him twice.




One cannot sue the government (any government) unless it agrees that you can sue it, or it violates a federal law in some way. It is called sovereign immunity, at least in the USA.

Collecting the motor fuel tax is not going to violate federal law, sorry.

ASSH0LE

ASSH0LE

Las Vegas, NV
June 2003

JUN 27, 2007 12:37 AM

brooklynhero said:
What the fuck?! Three cheers for hipocrisy!

Just some quick numbers

the average price of gas in Charlotte is $2.96 plus that wonderful 9/10ths gas tax

Our little musician is paying roughly $2.58 for his veggie mobile per gallon (12 for a costco 5 gal jug of veg oil plus 7.5% sales tax)

But the funny thing is the state is techincally making more money off of him in sales tax. for every gallon he buys at the pump the state gets $0.009



He pays sales tax on unprepared foods?

I'm glad I grew up in New York State rather than South Taxolina!

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