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Bilharzia

Bilharzia

I'm lost
April 2004

APR 16, 2007 11:04 PM

Yummy said:
About the whole Kyoto Protocol thing, China is still a developing nation. Developing nations currently don't have the same restrictions on green house gas emissions as developed nations. Those nations weren't subject to such restrictions when they were developing, and it would be unfair to impose those limitations onto still developing countries now and restrict their industrial growth.



China, developing or not, has some surprisingly progressive plans for renewable energy:

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4691

The US (and other heavyweight champion polluters) should take note.


mingol

mingol

Singapore
July 2005

APR 17, 2007 02:08 AM

Yummy said:
I thought China already polluted more than the U.S., although I'm not sure. They do have a helluva lot more people and no restrictions on green house gas emissions though, so I think it's possible.


They're not quite there yet, but are projected to overtake the U.S. by about 2008/2009.

_Elichrusos

_Elichrusos

Australia
November 2004

APR 17, 2007 02:09 AM

scylis said:

Tech29 said:

brooklynhero said:
I absolutely love how people get wrapped up in green issues. Too bad Vonnegut isn't here to remind us - but Carlin still is







God I hope you think this is just a joke. The Planet IS NOT FINE.



no, i actually think that Carlin got it right: the planet is not fine FOR US. and many of the organisms that inhabit it NOW. from the perspective of something that might not survive this stage in the planet's evolution, it's not fine. but the planet, on the whole, IS doing fine. it's still got billions of years worth of existance and new creatures to populate it ahead. we haven't learned how to blow it up, yet, after all. we won't make it a barren, lifeless rock with our current level of technology, even. maybe we'll irradiate it for a little while, but stuff will adapt. the planet has been through worse.

so the planet is fine and doesn't need saving.

we are the ones needing the saving, actually. i'm all for spaceships, myself.



You can come to my moon colony.

zyryx

zyryx

Tyler, TX
April 2004

APR 17, 2007 05:43 AM

scylis said:

Tech29 said:

brooklynhero said:
I absolutely love how people get wrapped up in green issues. Too bad Vonnegut isn't here to remind us - but Carlin still is







God I hope you think this is just a joke. The Planet IS NOT FINE.



no, i actually think that Carlin got it right: the planet is not fine FOR US. and many of the organisms that inhabit it NOW. from the perspective of something that might not survive this stage in the planet's evolution, it's not fine. but the planet, on the whole, IS doing fine. it's still got billions of years worth of existance and new creatures to populate it ahead. we haven't learned how to blow it up, yet, after all. we won't make it a barren, lifeless rock with our current level of technology, even. maybe we'll irradiate it for a little while, but stuff will adapt. the planet has been through worse.

so the planet is fine and doesn't need saving.

we are the ones needing the saving, actually. i'm all for spaceships, myself.



+1

emperorreagan

emperorreagan

Baltimore, MD
January 2004

APR 17, 2007 09:38 AM

I think that was silly and points more to the imprecise use of language than anything else.

The majority of people who are concerned with environmental issues have an implied for us tacked on to their Save the planet! refrain. We would like to maintain the ecology of the planet such that it is conducive to human life.

While pointing out the distinction between what's implied and what's actually said might make for a good joke poking fun at humanity's self-importance, it ultimately isn't the point.

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

APR 17, 2007 02:49 PM

DrStinkypants said:

OpticNerve said:

Yummy said:
In this case, progress=fastest growing economy in the world. China is trying to do something about the pollution problem, but it's not an easy job, especially when a country is still in the process of industrializing.



At what level of industrialization will they start working on their pollution problem? I don't think the Earth can wait for X number of years of pollution before the DPRC decides it is time to tackle the problem. There is enough evidence that the world environment and ecology stand at a precipice, and that every nation, including China, has to make some bold choices to ensure the survival of all life on this planet. The old rules of progress and development don't apply anymore. There has to be a way to grow a nation's economy without destroying the planet.



I agree. It isn't the 40's. Knowing what we know now, it seems like it must be easier to build developing nations' infrastructures to be more responsible and emissions conservative. Building a traditional infrastructure and then having to tear it down and rebuild a modern one in 10 years but stupid in the long run and the short run.



Yes. Perhaps the West could help by providing designs at cost? That would avoid the necessity to build old-style infrastructure.

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

APR 17, 2007 02:54 PM

scylis said:

Tech29 said:

brooklynhero said:
I absolutely love how people get wrapped up in green issues. Too bad Vonnegut isn't here to remind us - but Carlin still is



God I hope you think this is just a joke. The Planet IS NOT FINE.



no, i actually think that Carlin got it right: the planet is not fine FOR US. and many of the organisms that inhabit it NOW. from the perspective of something that might not survive this stage in the planet's evolution, it's not fine. but the planet, on the whole, IS doing fine. it's still got billions of years worth of existance and new creatures to populate it ahead. we haven't learned how to blow it up, yet, after all. we won't make it a barren, lifeless rock with our current level of technology, even. maybe we'll irradiate it for a little while, but stuff will adapt. the planet has been through worse.

so the planet is fine and doesn't need saving.

we are the ones needing the saving, actually. i'm all for spaceships, myself.



The biggest argument against carbon dioxide emission is not climate change. It's acidification of the oceans. The planet is not fine.

Bear in mind, also, that irradiation can happen by removal of shielding. The ozone layer, for instance.

Bilharzia

Bilharzia

I'm lost
April 2004

APR 17, 2007 09:34 PM



The biggest argument against carbon dioxide emission is not climate change. It's acidification of the oceans.



Hear, hear!

midfuckepiphany

midfuckepiphany

Niue
August 2004

APR 18, 2007 07:22 AM

I'm a journalist who has been visiting China in the course of doing my job a couple of times a year since 2003. I write about industrial manufacturing, and environmental regulations are a key part of what I write about. When I go to China, I tour production facilities, speak with Chinese regulatory officials, etc.

Everything that Yummy is saying is correct. China's government is, in effect, building an entire modern economy (in one of the largest, and the most populous, countries on the planet) virtually from scratch. The enormity of this project cannot be overstated. The project is moving at break-neck speed, but even at that speed, as Yummy alluded to, at this point only about 1% of China - mostly along the east coast -- has been overhauled, while the rest remains in communist-era dilapidation. It's very weird; it's like China is two countries right now - the overhauled 1% and the unoverhauled 99% - it's like night and day.

Much of the infrastructural overhaul and industrial development, generally speaking, does indeed, from what I've seen, target strict environmental standards, and much of it is actually quite state-of-the-art - I've seen environmental protection technologies there that are more sophisticated than some anywhere else on the planet. But again, China's economic modernization project is a huge one that has really only just begun.

China's government has to pull off this incredible undertaking (which involves, as a less-than-ideal byproduct, the inevitable creation of vast wealth disparities within the population) while managing to keep all its citizens supportive of its efforts (i.e., major uprisings would complicate things) and the government has 1.3 billion mouths to feed. It's a very volatile situation. The Yangtze river is a critical artery for Chinese commerce, development and industrial production.

In Western countries like the US, people have the luxury of demanding, and sometimes getting, pretty, clean rivers to look at and play in and nourish surrounding ecosystems with. But in China, to put it bluntly, if China's government deems it necessary to pollute a river in order to pull off the massive task it has before it, well, it's just going to do that. And frankly (and this is something I think a lot of people in Western countries don't fully appreciate yet) China can do whatever it wants. China is really in the drivers' seat here; it's holding all the cards. If China's government wants to have a polluted Yangtze, and the world doesn't like it, China is perfectly situated to say, "tough shit." And the world has no choice but to accept it.

Hell, just think about how long China has stonewalled international pressure to float its currency; maybe that will put it in perspective.

GiddyIguana

GiddyIguana

Spartanburg, SC
February 2004

APR 22, 2007 12:45 PM

midfuckepiphany said:

A lot about China.



You're absolutely right about the current state of that nation. I had the opportunity last summer to re-trace the entire Long March route, a journey that wound through a LOT of that nation that the West seems to be completely unaware of. China is a beautiful, fascinating place, to be sure. It is a land of innumerable seeming contradictions, where the ultra-modern and the truly ancient seem to, for now at least, have forged a peaceful (if not altogether comfortable) co-existence.

I have trouble imagining that any country on Earth could have progressed as far as China has, as fast as it has, and virtually from scratch. No, the results haven't always been pretty, just as the above article outlines. Yet, by all indications the Chinese government is finally becoming aware of its growing ecological problem and is taking steps towards addressing the impending crisis. No, the water isn't drinkable straight from the tap ANYWHERE in that country, but nobody seems to mind. It's just another fact of life that everyone seems comfortable dealing with.

In short, the Chinese seem to know what they're doing. It's their problem; let them deal with it.

Oh, and Yummy: Shanghai and Beijing are "tiny"??? In comparison to what?? Shaoshan is a small city. Yen'an is a small city. Shanghai and Beijing are GIGANTIC.

mingol

mingol

Singapore
July 2005

APR 22, 2007 01:57 PM

GiddyIguana said:
Oh, and Yummy: Shanghai and Beijing are "tiny"??? In comparison to what??


They may be huge cities, but they account for only about 2.5% of China's population and 0.0025% of its geographical area. In that context, yes, they're tiny.

midfuckepiphany

midfuckepiphany

Niue
August 2004

APR 23, 2007 10:01 AM

GiddyIguana said:

midfuckepiphany said:

A lot about China.



You're absolutely right about the current state of that nation. I had the opportunity last summer to re-trace the entire Long March route, a journey that wound through a LOT of that nation that the West seems to be completely unaware of. China is a beautiful, fascinating place, to be sure. It is a land of innumerable seeming contradictions, where the ultra-modern and the truly ancient seem to, for now at least, have forged a peaceful (if not altogether comfortable) co-existence.

I have trouble imagining that any country on Earth could have progressed as far as China has, as fast as it has, and virtually from scratch. No, the results haven't always been pretty, just as the above article outlines. Yet, by all indications the Chinese government is finally becoming aware of its growing ecological problem and is taking steps towards addressing the impending crisis. No, the water isn't drinkable straight from the tap ANYWHERE in that country, but nobody seems to mind. It's just another fact of life that everyone seems comfortable dealing with.

In short, the Chinese seem to know what they're doing. It's their problem; let them deal with it.

Oh, and Yummy: Shanghai and Beijing are "tiny"??? In comparison to what?? Shaoshan is a small city. Yen'an is a small city. Shanghai and Beijing are GIGANTIC.



well said. that sounds like an excellent trip you took. yeah, i'm fascinated by that place. i'm trying to work it out so i can move there and work from there; but it's tricky, especially since i'm trying to do it on a skeletal budget. maybe by the end of this year ...

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