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Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

APR 17, 2007 09:53 PM

ObservingOne said:
So what would be logical as opposed to emotional? Something other than what was deserved?

It's odd that nobody is actually arguing that execution is NOT what is deserved but instead are attempting to make the case that murderers should not GET what they deserve...that getting what is deserved is somehow not fair when it is actually the definition of what is fair.



Because it's a ridiculous question and irrelevant (especially in this situation). You say "he deserves it" but what he "deserves" has no bearing on the law whatsoever. A court may decide his sentence based on a number of factors, but the law is not designed to give a person what he "deserves." The law is designed to mete out Justice. What Justice is will vary from case-to-case. It should be noted of course that simply because a Court has decided on a particular person's sentence that it may or may not be ultimately "Just." It also may or may not be "fair," "rational," or "Constitutional" but each and every one of those variables are in actuality quite independent of each other.

Incidentally, there is no one definition of Justice. You can argue for the rest of your natural life about it, but that's just like... your opinion man.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

APR 17, 2007 10:14 PM

ObservingOne said:
So what would be logical as opposed to emotional? Something other than what was deserved?

It's odd that nobody is actually arguing that execution is NOT what is deserved but instead are attempting to make the case that murderers should not GET what they deserve...that getting what is deserved is somehow not fair when it is actually the definition of what is fair.

Just because you believe it is an emotional (and therefore illogical) response does not make it so. I really don't see where you have given anything to support your statement.

First off, I was building off other peoples' statements and the flow of the conversation. Maybe I have interpreted wrong, but I got the feeling that you were of the opinion that justice is ultimately about what's best for a society (which is ultimately arrived to through logic), and even if you weren't I was using it as the basis of my argument.

What's better for society as a whole? Saving money, saving innocent lives, and learning how to better profile anti-social (potentially murderous) behavior patterns or to kill people (which is inconsistent with our view of ethics "thou shalt not kill", in the first place) to make people feel better, because someone "got what they deserved"? Come on, can you really tell me the latter is better for society and based in logical social policy (thereby, IMO anyway, making it more just) than the former? Resist, resist, my friend, but just because it's legislated doesn't make it just (note: slavery).

SexyBeast

SexyBeast

Covington, LA
July 2004

APR 18, 2007 01:24 AM

deusxmachina said:

SexyBeast said:

deusxmachina said:
People are not animals, or we would execute them for plenty of other crimes besides murder.



I said "poses that much of a threat to people". I did not say random crimes. The person killed people, so I was talking about murder. Other than that, people are animals.



I understand what you meant. I was making an argument that people aren't animals, and what would happen if they were.

At least say "people that murder people, are animals", or something not quite as ignorant.



Sorry, I was in a hurry earlier and I misread it, but people are still animals. If I'm ignorant, educate me.

Starla

Starla

SUICIDEGIRL

California, USA

APR 18, 2007 02:04 AM



Jasper Said:
I'm not really all for this death penalty stuff, but on the other hand, its obvious this guy's insane. I wouldn't really want him to be roaming the streets because he was crazy enough to spend 3 years digging through the cell wall with a sharpened tooth brush.



Yeah, dude. In fact, maybe if we started a pre-emptive death penalty for the clearly insane, our streets would be safer.

OK, I'm really tired and that didn't make, much sense, but to me it seems like your saying "I don't agree with the death penalty, but this guy is super crazy and that's scary eeek so I agree with killing him."

And since one super crazy scary guy out of the way, won't really make a difference, heck - why not kill 'em all?

I think executing a seriously mentally ill person encourages this kind of attitude.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

APR 18, 2007 06:46 AM

SexyBeast said:

deusxmachina said:

SexyBeast said:

deusxmachina said:
People are not animals, or we would execute them for plenty of other crimes besides murder.



I said "poses that much of a threat to people". I did not say random crimes. The person killed people, so I was talking about murder. Other than that, people are animals.



I understand what you meant. I was making an argument that people aren't animals, and what would happen if they were.

At least say "people that murder people, are animals", or something not quite as ignorant.



Sorry, I was in a hurry earlier and I misread it, but people are still animals. If I'm ignorant, educate me.


Oh for pete's sake. The point is that people are not treated like animals under the law.

Margot_Dent

Margot_Dent

Los Angeles, CA
February 2004

APR 18, 2007 10:50 AM

Subrosa said:

SexyBeast said:

deusxmachina said:

SexyBeast said:

deusxmachina said:
People are not animals, or we would execute them for plenty of other crimes besides murder.



I said "poses that much of a threat to people". I did not say random crimes. The person killed people, so I was talking about murder. Other than that, people are animals.



I understand what you meant. I was making an argument that people aren't animals, and what would happen if they were.

At least say "people that murder people, are animals", or something not quite as ignorant.



Sorry, I was in a hurry earlier and I misread it, but people are still animals. If I'm ignorant, educate me.


Oh for pete's sake. The point is that people are not treated like animals under the law.



Not true, I went in to contest a traffic ticket once, and they hit me on the nose with a rolled up newspaper. frown

bean

bean

STAFF

Los Angeles, CA

APR 18, 2007 12:51 PM

ObservingOne said:
So what would be logical as opposed to emotional? Something other than what was deserved?

It's odd that nobody is actually arguing that execution is NOT what is deserved but instead are attempting to make the case that murderers should not GET what they deserve...that getting what is deserved is somehow not fair when it is actually the definition of what is fair.

Just because you believe it is an emotional (and therefore illogical) response does not make it so. I really don't see where you have given anything to support your statement.


Who decides what is fair and "deserved" and how do they decide it?

deusxmachina

deusxmachina

Honolulu, HI
May 2003

APR 18, 2007 03:41 PM

Subrosa said:

SexyBeast said:

deusxmachina said:

SexyBeast said:

deusxmachina said:
People are not animals, or we would execute them for plenty of other crimes besides murder.



I said "poses that much of a threat to people". I did not say random crimes. The person killed people, so I was talking about murder. Other than that, people are animals.



I understand what you meant. I was making an argument that people aren't animals, and what would happen if they were.

At least say "people that murder people, are animals", or something not quite as ignorant.



Sorry, I was in a hurry earlier and I misread it, but people are still animals. If I'm ignorant, educate me.


Oh for pete's sake. The point is that people are not treated like animals under the law.



What he said.

James_

James_

United Kingdom
March 2003

APR 18, 2007 06:39 PM

ObservingOne said:

I fail to see much logic at all in your response. Just emotional outbursts.
Servants of the people? According to Gallup, 65% of "the people" support the death penalty. http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/opinion.htm
It's not a demonstration of ownership. It's is the will of "the people."


So, in your view it is the people of the state who are responsible for executing the criminal? Surely, therefore, they are all killers and should be punished accordingly? Or is culpability for killing somehow like marmite? palatable and acceptable to common taste when spread very thin, but if found in one big lump (i.e. one person) detestable and deserving of being spat out? There's massive hypocrisy inherent in that.


As for the punishment fitting the crime, a fine or imprisonment for a certain length of time is considered to fit most crimes. However, murder is the ultimate crime. It is taking a life. Spending a life in prison is not considered by many to "fit" that crime. They still have their life. They have lost many of their freedoms, but they have life. They have communication with others. They have access to educational materials. The list goes on. Their victims don't have those things. Thus, the punishment cannot fit the crime.



Here is a list of crimes that the death penalty has previously been considered a fitting punishment for in the uk:

blacking the face or using a disguise whilst committing a crime
witchcraft
heresy
cutting down an orchard
shoplifting
the concealment of effects by bankrupts
being in the company of Gypsies for one month and brilliantly
"strong evidence of malice in a child aged 7-14 years of age"

during c18 & c19 all these things were considered so heinous that they deserved the "ultimate punishment" as you call it. At some point in history people woke up and realised that these criminals could be rehabilitated, and the removal of the death penalty is a continuation of this. Murderers may or may not deserve to die, but the function of the justice system in modern times is no longer to hand out people's just deserts. It functions as a means of protection for the public and rehabilitation for the transgressor.

The death penalty is based on an outmoded superstition that taking someone's life somehow makes up for the fact that they have done the same thing to someone else. It does not, it just means two people are dead instead of one. It belongs in the dustbin of legal history alongside trial by ordeal and the torture chamber.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUN 28, 2007 11:16 PM

Femke said:
I hope Panetti wins.



Good news!

He did!

joker_

joker_

Minneapolis, MN
October 2005

JUN 28, 2007 11:40 PM

Well, Bean, Subrosa, pretty much said everything reasonable that I'd want to say.
What I often wonder about is what makes some people so gung ho for the death penalty and what it is that makes it so I and others are opposed. I wonder about what a supporter of the death penalty thinks about after reading Crime and Punishment? Of course, all the supporters of the death penalty I've chatted with either haven't read it or read the cliff notes.
Then I get to completely ridiculous thoughts such as, if you support the death penalty do you also believe that Batman is a pussy?

PS I'm glad Panetti won, I'm guessing he might not be aware that he won, but that is okay.

scorp17yh

scorp17yh

Brookings, OR
November 2004

JUN 29, 2007 08:32 AM

An eye for an eye,
till the whole world's
Blind

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