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emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

DEC 13, 2007 09:11 PM

Necia said:
The fact that Subrosa read that post and felt no need to mince words with his response, since the poster clearly felt no need to think for one second before passing such a stunning, cruel, cold-hearted, and wrongheaded judgment on another human being who had a horrific tragedy befall her at the hands of a sick individual whose actions were in no way within her control, is A-the fuck-OK with me.

I hope this isn't inappropriate...

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
Tag Team

I can't decide which one of you is Nacho.



FrankDelgato

FrankDelgato

Aquashicola, PA
November 2007

DEC 13, 2007 09:11 PM

Wow this is a charged discussion. Rightfully so...

Long and short, poor little girl. Already on a path to a shitty life - epilepsy, stroke, heat turned off- then this shit goes and happens. I hope she can take all this and flip it and improve her station in life. This deserves more media attention than that "Subway Superman" a while back.

Hell, I think he went to work that day, not the ER.

Flux

Flux

SUICIDEGIRL

North Carolina, USA

DEC 13, 2007 09:11 PM

Poe said:

Flux said:

Poe said:
Please, don't bother me with semantics. I have no interest in debating this. You don't know the truth or details, and neither do I. What I do know is that the news article clearly states she mistook her ex for a "furnace repairman". Sounds to me like the furnace was broken, not cut off. Where did you read that she couldn't afford to pay her bill? As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that the furnace repairman standing on your front porch implies you CAN in fact afford it!



Actually, what the article clearly states is that the friend mistook the mother's ex for a "furnace repairman."

Nice try, though.


Ok, and her dear close friend who is putting her life on the line for her thinks her furnace is only broken, doesn't actually know she can't afford to pay her fucking bill?

Please, just stop.



Why are you so intent on finding this woman guilty of some nebulous neglect?

girl_afraid

girl_afraid

Milwaukee, WI
November 2004

DEC 13, 2007 09:14 PM

Subrosa said:

varukasalt said:

Police identified him as Calvin Tillie, 29, a four-time convicted felon whom Parker had dated for six months.

Why was this woman dating a 4 time convicted felon when she has a child? Did she not know? I would find that very hard to believe. I know I don't have all the facts, but I can't imagine anything that could justify bring this kind of person around children. I sure wouldn't allow someone like that anywhere near my children, much less date them. She didn't pull the trigger, but she definitely bears some responsibility in exposing this poor child to such a dangerous person. If I'm somehow wrong here, I will eat my words.

My heart goes out to the child, no child should have to endure anything even remotely like this.


Go fuck yourself.



i second this, and flux's above response.

this absolutely broke my heart.

Chainlink

Chainlink

Key West, FL
August 2005

DEC 13, 2007 09:16 PM




Campbell Elementary School

c/o the Alexis Goggins Hero Fund

2301 E Alexandrine St

Detroit, MI 48207.



For information, call (313) 494-2052.

Necia

Necia

San Francisco, CA
August 2005

DEC 13, 2007 09:19 PM

thefreak said:

Necia said:
*shrugs*

His girlfriend's proud, in any event.

While it's nowhere near as sickening as the actual event detailed in this story, the combination of arrogance, whiny-boy misogyny, and a stunning lack of any semblance of empathy in a lot of this thread is nauseating. Every single one of you who read about this poor woman's ordeal and thought, "Well, damn--that's what you get" has something severely fucking wrong with you.


You know what? Please. Please point to me one explicit instance where anyone fucking said that.

If I knew that a guy was a four-time convicted felon, I'd be wary of letting him near my kids, yes--but I'd also be wary of letting anyone near my kids who's so obviously and disgustingly incapable of empathy and basic human compassion as some of you seem to be. The fact that Subrosa read that post and felt no need to mince words with his response, since the poster clearly felt no need to think for one second before passing such a stunning, cruel, cold-hearted, and wrongheaded judgment on another human being who had a horrific tragedy befall her at the hands of a sick individual whose actions were in no way within her control, is A-the fuck-OK with me.


Maybe you should read through the posts (and the thread for that matter) a little more thoroughly before making assumptions and blatantly gross over-generalizations like the ones I've bolded, lest you're no better than the invisible mob you're condemning.

-TM



Well, I did read the thread (yes, the whole thing--and all the posts in it, too!), and I stand by my statements wholeheartedly.

There's no invisible mob--just certain individual posts, and those are the ones to which I was speaking. Again, I have no desire to retract or reevaluate my reaction to said posts; I read them all correctly, I know what was posted, and what I in turn posted is my genuine thought on the words and opinions contained therein.

Thanks for double-checking, though.

wastrel

wastrel

Orange, CA
October 2007

DEC 13, 2007 09:19 PM

Subrosa said:

wastrel said:
And Subrosa, I have a feeling any woman on this site could be a bitch and you'd still jump forward to defend them. I think you are worried about being so politically correct you'd rather overdo it than appear minutely intolerant to the feminist movement.



Uh, you don't know me at all. Your "feelings" are wrong. For example, I think this opinion right here is retarded. And that's not really PC.

So yeah.



You're right, I don't know you. But, you also don't know the people you are using the colorful language against either. So my opinion about you, must be about as 'retarded' as yours is about them.



Thistle said:

wastrel said:

Flux, you weren't being a bitch.

Poe, you were border line, but I understand the point you're making and that others have been making. The thing is, right now just isn't the best time for it in regards to what has happened.



Why are you the person who gets to decide who's a bitch and who isn't, and whether or not a man is being PC in agreeing with a woman who you think is being a bitch?



I'm not deciding, I'm stating my opinion. I just don't feel a need to expressly state that I am stating an opinion. I feel most posts are in fact a statement of someones opinion, be it their own or some other persons. And Subrosa was agreeing with Flux, whom I did not think was being bitchy, just stating a strong argument opposing another strong argument.

Ascanius

Ascanius

South Royalton, VT
October 2006

DEC 13, 2007 09:32 PM

oyaji said:
So why the fuck should it be any different in a more informal assigning of blame?



For argument's sake, although I doubt this thread needs more argument, different values. We might want to discourage a certain type of behavior in an informal sociological way but be unwilling to penalize that type of behavior in a court of law.

thefreak

thefreak

NEWSWIRE

Gardner, MA

DEC 13, 2007 09:33 PM

Necia said:
Well, I did read the thread (yes, the whole thing--and all the posts in it, too!), and I stand by my statements wholeheartedly.

There's no invisible mob--just certain individual posts, and those are the ones to which I was speaking. Again, I have no desire to retract or reevaluate my reaction to said posts; I read them all correctly, I know what was posted, and what I in turn posted is my genuine thought on the words and opinions contained therein.

Thanks for double-checking, though.


*shrugs*

What else can be said? You would rather make gross assumptions about people you don't know and read too much into arguments that aren't being made outside of the point you're trying to make, simply to make you feel better as a person.

Note: I just noticed the delicious irony in what I just typed.

-TM

Poe

Poe

SUICIDEGIRL

Texas, USA

DEC 13, 2007 09:37 PM

Flux said:

Poe said:

Flux said:

Poe said:
Please, don't bother me with semantics. I have no interest in debating this. You don't know the truth or details, and neither do I. What I do know is that the news article clearly states she mistook her ex for a "furnace repairman". Sounds to me like the furnace was broken, not cut off. Where did you read that she couldn't afford to pay her bill? As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that the furnace repairman standing on your front porch implies you CAN in fact afford it!



Actually, what the article clearly states is that the friend mistook the mother's ex for a "furnace repairman."

Nice try, though.


Ok, and her dear close friend who is putting her life on the line for her thinks her furnace is only broken, doesn't actually know she can't afford to pay her fucking bill?

Please, just stop.



Why are you so intent on finding this woman guilty of some nebulous neglect?


My intention is to defend varukasalt's right to feel sympathy AND to question what could very well be considered poor judgment at the same time. I'm not interested in burning this woman at the stake. What's done is done, and as I said, it's an unfortunate tragedy, which could POSSIBLY have been prevented. Who was he hurting? Your pride? Why do you feel the need to attack someone's opinion when the intent is not malicious?

That's all I have to say. I'm really not interested in a moral deliberation. I've already said my part. Stop turning nothing into something.

thefreak

thefreak

NEWSWIRE

Gardner, MA

DEC 13, 2007 09:41 PM

oyaji said:
To frame this in a legal context, would any of you want this fuckface to be able to gain any kind of lenience with a court by saying "but, your honor, it's partially the mother's fault that I shot her and her kid! After all, I am a four-time felon!" ?

Does anyone imagine that in a civil action against this fucker for assault and battery and all kinds of other torts that a similar argument would be availing in reducing his share of the damages he inflicted?

So why the fuck should it be any different in a more informal assigning of blame?


'Yaji, I love ya, you're a smart guy, but how does pointing out one part of the story (If, If, IF she knew about his criminal record and ignored it, why would she bring someone like that into her home w/a young child?) equal absolving Mr. Queeflick of any and all blame and putting it all square on the mother, etc., etc.? Yes, it's pure speculation @this point, but it doesn't make the question any less valid, nevermind create any other arguments out of thin air. I can only speak definitively for myself, but my wondering about the safety of the child does not in any way, shape, or form invalidate the rest of my argument, nor does it mean I blame the mother 100%.

-TM

Flux

Flux

SUICIDEGIRL

North Carolina, USA

DEC 13, 2007 09:51 PM

Poe said:
My intention is to defend varukasalt's right to feel sympathy AND to question what could very well be considered poor judgment at the same time. I'm not interested in burning this woman at the stake. What's done is done, and as I said, it's an unfortunate tragedy, which could POSSIBLY have been prevented. Who was he hurting? Your pride? Why do you feel the need to attack someone's opinion when the intent is not malicious?

That's all I have to say. I'm really not interested in a moral deliberation. I've already said my part. Stop turning nothing into something.



But is he somehow entitled not to have his argument questioned? I didn't insult him, but I don't feel like digging to the bottom of people's gut reactions is "nothing".

As I've said, his response mimics a lot of what you hear in the discourse surrounding victims of abuse--that they should "know better," which is especially remarkable in that the woman obviously took steps to extricate herself from this relationship but is still condemned. I'm not interested in attacking him but his argument, and it's not my pride I'm defending but the basic understanding that we absolutely cannot hold victims responsible for what happens to them and that applying one's personal moral code and life experience to the experience of another is not generally a productive or valid way of effecting social change.

wastrel

wastrel

Orange, CA
October 2007

DEC 13, 2007 09:54 PM

values..in and of themselves are all dependant upon each individual person. Yes, some values are shared by EVERYONE, but not all. Otherwise we would have so many crazy laws if you tied them succinctly to values

Emi

Emi

SUICIDEGIRL

I'm lost

DEC 13, 2007 10:17 PM

dude, she has a point.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

DEC 13, 2007 10:17 PM

oyaji said:

wastrel said:
values..in and of themselves are all dependant upon each individual person. Yes, some values are shared by EVERYONE, but not all. Otherwise we would have so many crazy laws if you tied them succinctly to values



You are missing the point. The law, in effect, represent the sanctioned "values" of our society. The "official" "values," as it were. They are a collective expression that certain types of behavior are unacceptable and/or have specific consequences with which such behaviors are connected.

I know better than to get involved in this conversation, but it started out by asking why values other than legal "values" should/could be considered in assignation of blame. Now, I'm not a religious man, but I'm sure many religious people would assign blame to some for some action even if the law doesn't recognize it. I'm pretty sure that's Ascanius's point. For example, I might think someone is a bad person for doing X but that doesn't mean I necessary think they should be prosecuted under the law: two modes of judgment for a single act. In this particular case you are definitely right, the law would not mitigate this guys act by the fact that "she should have known" better and neither should we in our judgment. They just happen to align in this instance, but do they always?



thefreak

thefreak

NEWSWIRE

Gardner, MA

DEC 13, 2007 10:17 PM

oyaji said:
The point is that in a legal setting that argument would not change the allocation of responsibility a single motherfucking iota. I'm not saying it would absolve him. I'm saying it would be totally and completely unavailing. Any lawyer making such an argument would probably be subject to sanctions.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but I don't think anyone is trying to make any argument where legality or the future trial is concerned. It's an argument concerning the possibility of a lapse in common sense concerning the welfare and safety of the child in and of itself. No bearing on placing overall blame, no heavy-handed final judgement on the mother and her fitness as such. Barring all other factors from the equation, including the crime @hand, if the mother knew of his criminal past, ignored it, and let this man into her home w/a young child, doesn't that show some error in the mother's judgment?

Pardon another hypothetical (albeit related and, sadly, true), but say, for instance, a Catholic priest who was known by the Church to have had allegations of molestation or worse instead ignore it and place said priest in another church where said priest molests another child. While the priest is solely to blame for the crimes @hand, isn't the church @fault for knowing of his past and doing nothing?

Nobody in this thread is trying to help the guy's case. Simply wondering about the well-being of a child and whether the circumstances could've been prevented. But people are making mountains out of molehills and, in turn, saying some unnecessary and outright hateful things towards others, things I would be hard-pressed to say to my worst enemy, simply because they didn't ape their own arguments word for word like they feel should have been. And that's just sad.

I dunno. Maybe I should just head back to Silliness, where shit makes sense.

-TM

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

DEC 13, 2007 10:17 PM

Flux said:
I'm not interested in attacking him but his argument, and it's not my pride I'm defending but the basic understanding that we absolutely cannot hold victims responsible for what happens to them and that applying one's personal moral code and life experience to the experience of another is not generally a productive or valid way of effecting social change.



Bitch.

Ascanius

Ascanius

South Royalton, VT
October 2006

DEC 13, 2007 10:21 PM

oyaji said:

Subrosa said:

Flux said:
I'm not interested in attacking him but his argument, and it's not my pride I'm defending but the basic understanding that we absolutely cannot hold victims responsible for what happens to them and that applying one's personal moral code and life experience to the experience of another is not generally a productive or valid way of effecting social change.



Bitch.



Sniveling cunt.



You're lucky he's too PC to comeback from that.

Hapa277

Hapa277

Pearl City, HI
September 2007

DEC 13, 2007 10:29 PM

Christ, someone get out an olive branch.

How about we pray for the little girl and the mother and send them money instead of futily arguing on here?

Flux

Flux

SUICIDEGIRL

North Carolina, USA

DEC 13, 2007 10:29 PM

Hapa277 said:
Christ, someone get out an olive branch.

How about we pray for the little girl and the mother and send them money instead of futily arguing on here?



I'll drink to that.

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

DEC 13, 2007 10:31 PM

One or two things I know for sure.

1. If your reaction to a tragedy is to try to apportion *blame* to the victim, you are an asshole.

2. If your reaction to someone pointing out that in d.v. situations, people often blame the woman is to squeal about how feminists are so unfair! And women do bad things too! you are a self-pitying asshole.

3. If your reaction to bad things happening to children is to find ways to blame their mothers, you are an asshole. Mothers are human beings. Human beings do all sorts of things. Sometimes risks pay off, sometimes they don't, and sometimes you do risky things without even knowing they're risky. Someone could just as easily say something like, "oh, she dated a guy who paid money for stupid shit like an alt porn site, what the fuck did she expect when he racked up all her credit cards and ran off?" and presumably, if such a thing were to happen, you'd be all up in arms about how his being on SG was *irrelevant* and the point was that he was, individually, an asshole. (Except for those of you who would be saying that any woman should, of course, be checking her boyfriend's pocket for receipts at the end of every day, and then whining about how feminists don't trust men.)

As Necia said,

If I knew that a guy was a four-time convicted felon, I'd be wary of letting him near my kids, yes--but I'd also be wary of letting anyone near my kids who's so obviously and disgustingly incapable of empathy and basic human compassion as some of you seem to be.



A-fucking men.

thefreak

thefreak

NEWSWIRE

Gardner, MA

DEC 13, 2007 10:34 PM

Flux said:

Hapa277 said:
Christ, someone get out an olive branch.

How about we pray for the little girl and the mother and send them money instead of futily arguing on here?


I'll drink to that.


*gets another Pepsi One, as he is sadly beerless*

I second that.

-TM

DannyDMc

DannyDMc

Fargo, ND
July 2003

DEC 13, 2007 10:41 PM


Good God; what a brave little girl frown My heart goes out to them, I'm going to see if I can donate some cash for that family, and I'll mention to others as well. That poor little thing frown frown

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

DEC 13, 2007 10:50 PM

Hapa277 said:
Christ, someone get out an olive branch.

How about we pray for the little girl and the mother and send them money instead of futily arguing on here?



Yes, amen.

Roethke

Roethke

SUICIDEGIRL

California, USA

DEC 13, 2007 11:05 PM

Poe said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Roethke said:

Poe said:

varukasalt said:

Police identified him as Calvin Tillie, 29, a four-time convicted felon whom Parker had dated for six months.

Why was this woman dating a 4 time convicted felon when she has a child? Did she not know? I would find that very hard to believe. I know I don't have all the facts, but I can't imagine anything that could justify bring this kind of person around children. I sure wouldn't allow someone like that anywhere near my children, much less date them. She didn't pull the trigger, but she definitely bears some responsibility in exposing this poor child to such a dangerous person. If I'm somehow wrong here, I will eat my words.

My heart goes out to the child, no child should have to endure anything even remotely like this.


My thoughts exactly. I love how everyone feels morally superior to anyone who would DARE question the victim's contribution to a bad situation. What a fucking joke. People need to get off their high horse and stfu sometimes. Personally, if I had children, I wouldn't be exposing them to dangerous felons, but hey, that's just me and I'm obviously a cold-hearted, insensitive monster. whatever



Do you run a background check on all of your lovers? Do you check for referrences, and make sure they've no prior convictions? Personally, I've no idea if people I've dated have been felons or not. But I take it that you run thorough searches on all people who you come into contact with.

I imagine that, were I very poor, a single mother, and trying to take care of a child with expensive medical needs, I'd be willing to accept the help I got, even if it came from someone with a dubious past. This woman didn't have any heat, it isn't as though she's demonstrated to have tons of options.



No, but I don't live in detroit. http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Detroit&state=MI

Please, don't bother me with semantics. I have no interest in debating this. You don't know the truth or details, and neither do I. What I do know is that the news article clearly states she mistook the ex for a "furnace repairman". Sounds to me like the furnace was broken, not cut off. Where did you read that she couldn't afford to pay her bill? As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that the furnace repairman standing on your front porch implies you CAN in fact afford it!

The only piece of information we know as FACT in this story is that the mother dated this guy. I don't know about you, but I think I would notice after 6 months that my boyfriend is on parole.

This is a really sad and unfortunate event, and it's fucking stupid that anyone is arguing about it. No one in this entire god damn thread is saying that children deserve to be shot in the face. Feel sympathy, donate if you wish, but don't impose your opinion on other people. Chances are they won't agree, and telling them to die in a fire isn't going to change a damn thing.



I'm afraid you don't get points for reading comprehension.

I never said she couldn't afford to pay her bill, I said she had no heat. I did not specify why she had no heat. The article clearly states that the friend who drove to pick the mother and child up (to take them to her heated home) thought Tillie, the shooter, was the repairman.

Not all felons are on parole. The article doesn't mention that he's a convicted felon currently on parole. Parole only lasts for so long, and then you get to be a free person with only a spotted past. You're making all of these assumptions about how she put her child knowingly in harms way, but you've no idea what she knew.

And honestly, if you're going to tell me that my opinion doesn't matter to you, then save yourself the time and react as though it didn't actually matter and drop your weak argument already.

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